Cameras that can match Alexa's Rec709

[Minu Park]

I am going to shoot A cam (Alexa classic + arri raw) and two dragons within a month.

The client likes the look of Alexa's Rec 709 and the contracts require me to deliver the "basic color corrected" footage to them.

I was wondering, whether anyone have matched between them, and thoughts about it

If Red really doesn't match with alexa, I am thinking of renting 2x F5 or FS7 (Alexa lut) instead.

Thank you very much

 

[Matt Hartle]

I'm working on a show right now that has both dragon and a whole variety of Alexa's. I can't pass any LUT's along as they belong to the show but I can tell you it's very possible to match red log to alexa with a properly calibrated LUT.

 

[sam windell]

I'm working on a show right now that has both dragon and a whole variety of Alexa's. I can't pass any LUT's along as they belong to the show but I can tell you it's very possible to match red log to alexa with a properly calibrated LUT.

Especially if you go with a Standard OLPF. It reflects Alexa much closer in the skin tone values and blurs the line a bit. If your budget is super crunched and a red is out of equation, high end productions are known to mix black magic's with the alexa's. Just have a crap ton of batteries and memory cards on hand.

 

[Timothy Jones]

Canon C300II has a special log or lut that is supposed to look like an Alexia built in .

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I think this is an interesting question ....

If we had a LUT that did this then people might stop harping on the whole DR thing with Alexa.... If I were to monitor in RedLog people would freak at the low contrast, yet when I do DC2/RG4 they think it is too crunchy sometimes if they are used to Alexa with 709. Am I wrong?

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Peter,

It would unlikely to be too difficult to create a matching Alexa look LUT. Firstly take an Alexa and preferably a Red Weapon camera shoot a high and low contrast subject on both cameras. The more variety in scenes the better the Alexa LUT is likely to be. Take footage to your favourite color grader. He only has to match the Red footage to the Alexa and then output this as a LUT and bingo. Next time I have an Alexa I might try and do it myself although luckily most of my clients are not that fussed about the Alexa look.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I think this is an interesting question ....

If we had a LUT that did this then people might stop harping on the whole DR thing with Alexa.... If I were to monitor in RedLog people would freak at the low contrast, yet when I do DC2/RG4 they think it is too crunchy sometimes if they are used to Alexa with 709. Am I wrong?

Hello Peter,

You are right. I see RG4 as having too much contrast, and having too much contrast makes it not look filmic enough.
I think RG4 crushes the blacks a bit too much, makes the colors a bit too oversaturated, and crushes the highlights WAY too much.

The sad thing about this industry is that today lots of colorists or directors add way too much contrast in the DI or Final Output
so that even film doesn't look like film.

I wish RED would create a Gamma called RGF (Red Gamma Film), which would look like the final output of film transfers from the 70's and 80's.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hello Peter,

You are right. I see RG4 as having too much contrast, and having too much contrast makes it not look filmic enough.
I think RG4 crushes the blacks a bit too much, makes the colors a bit too oversaturated, and crushes the highlights WAY too much.

The sad thing about this industry is that today lots of colorists or directors add way too much contrast in the DI or Final Output
so that even film doesn't look like film.

I wish RED would create a Gamma called RGF (Red Gamma Film), which would look like the final output of film transfers from the 70's and 80's.

A lot of folks still use REDgamma2 for it's less aggressive curve if that's desired.

As for matching the Alexa to RED and vice versa, pretty easily done via color charts to generate a LUT. I've had to do this a few times over the years. You may or may not want to add a 1/8 LowCon into the mix in some situations if you want to go nuts.

 

[Martin Stevens]

What I really wish for, is for Red to create a GAMMA EDITOR right inside RedCine so that I can open up an existing Gamma, edit it, and then save it to a different name, as in you cannot save it to the original name so there can only ever be one RG4 for example.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I am going to shoot A cam (Alexa classic + arri raw) and two dragons within a month.

The client likes the look of Alexa's Rec 709 and the contracts require me to deliver the "basic color corrected" footage to them.

I was wondering, whether anyone have matched between them, and thoughts about it

The matching part depends on what one considers as "matched", because the subjective sensibility differs greatly.

"Basic color corrected footage" is not delicate camera color matching. So if the client expects cameras matched, further from proper whites, blacks & gamma that is additional color grading service in the package.

The answer to the notion of the topic, if Amira is not an option is - neither. Cameras differ and that is a colorist's job. If both are shot properly, skilled colorist should be able to match Red and Alexa.

If Red really doesn't match with alexa, I am thinking of renting 2x F5 or FS7 (Alexa lut) instead.

That route is not matching Alexa's color response.

Firstly take an Alexa and preferably a Red Weapon camera shoot a high and low contrast subject on both cameras. The more variety in scenes the better the Alexa LUT is likely to be. Take footage to your favourite color grader. He only has to match the Red footage to the Alexa and then output this as a LUT and bingo.

That is a pretty stretched usage of the term "only".

 

[Mark K.]

I've certainly seen Dragon matched pretty nicely to Alexa, however I think the F5 is a better match for the Arri (and a more straightforward workflow).

With the LC709A LUT on the Sony you're practically there already, plus the native sensitivity of the camera will put you at a closer starting point to the Arri in terms of ND levels in front of the lenses.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I've certainly seen Dragon matched pretty nicely to Alexa, however I think the F5 is a better match for the Arri (and a more straightforward workflow).

With the LC709A LUT on the Sony you're practically there already, plus the native sensitivity of the camera will put you at a closer starting point to the Arri in terms of ND levels in front of the lenses.

I heartily disagree. The F5 and Alexa are lightyears apart. Dragon and Alexa have a pretty different colour science but for a seasoned colourist this shouldn't be a major problem.

Hans

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Don't use RedGamma4

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The client likes the look of Alexa's Rec 709 and the contracts require me to deliver the "basic color corrected" footage to them.

So, the client wants the Dragon footage to "match the Alexa's Rec 709".

That can be done with a high precision 3D LUT - and the 3D LUT would be specifically made for the gamma you indent to use on the Dragon.

Since Dragon can not support 3D LUTs - use a TERADEK COLR to load, test and monitor the transform LUT - and then apply the transform LUT (RLF > "ARRI Rec 709") to the R3D's in RCX for delivery.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I've certainly seen Dragon matched pretty nicely to Alexa, however I think the F5 is a better match for the Arri (and a more straightforward workflow).

F5 is designed with different philosilophy than Red and Arri cameras. Which affects not only workflow but its color science as well.

With the LC709A LUT on the Sony you're practically there already,

That is incorrect. That LUT just additionally reduces the gamut and offers a specific gamma curve. It doesn't change the color response which differs significantly. Camera's color response is a much more complex matter.

 

[Mark K.]

I heartily disagree. The F5 and Alexa are lightyears apart. Dragon and Alexa have a pretty different colour science but for a seasoned colourist this shouldn't be a major problem.

Hans

You must be using different cameras to me then, because although I agree that matching Dragon with Alexa isn't a major problem for a seasoned colourist, matching the F5 with Alexa's Rec709 look is quick and easy. The latest Sony gamma and colour science (SLOG3 and Sgamut3.cine) have basically been designed to mimic Arri's image (and they do half-decent job of it), and there are a number of LUTs available now, that will bring you 90% of the way there in a single click.

F5 is designed with different philosilophy than Red and Arri cameras. Which affects not only workflow but its color science as well.

What philosophy is that? That the F5 had built-in broadcast capabilities on top of digital cinema functions? There's four separate colour sciences available on the Sony - Rec709, Sgamut, Sgamut3 and Sgamut3.cine, all of which are user-selectable.

That is incorrect. That LUT just additionally reduces the gamut and offers a specific gamma curve. It doesn't change the color response which differs significantly. Camera's color response is a much more complex matter.

Have you worked with the cameras much? I've run an F5 as B-cam to Alexa and Amira several times now, and if you apply the LC709A LUT, then take couple of points of magenta off the Sony, and a couple of points of green off the Arri, you'll have the images exceptionally close (especially for two very different cameras from very different manufacturers).

I'm not going to argue with anyone over the broader image quality of an F5 compared to an Epic Dragon, the Dragon wins (as it should for double the price). But as far as the OP's question of matching a B-camera to the Alexa's Rec709 look, the F5 is better placed to do that. Particularly if shooting 4k 16-bit raw on the Sony.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Since this conversation is related, some may be keen to have a look at my ARRI-RED camera/colourspace comparison:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...mparison-seeking-advice&p=1599528#post1599528

I'm running the test next week and posting the results the following week. If you have any suggestions or requests please post.

 

[shashbugu]

I am going to shoot A cam (Alexa classic + arri raw) and two dragons within a month.

The client likes the look of Alexa's Rec 709 and the contracts require me to deliver the "basic color corrected" footage to them.

I was wondering, whether anyone have matched between them, and thoughts about it

If Red really doesn't match with alexa, I am thinking of renting 2x F5 or FS7 (Alexa lut) instead.

Thank you very much

Minu, your request is not very clear. Why do you need Dragons or the F5? Is it to shoot VFX plates or simply as B cameras? Or is it to have lighter weight hand held B cameras? If so I suggest you either rent Arri Alexa M classics, abundant in the NY York rental market. Alexa minis would be great but they are hard to find and would cost more than the Dragons. Alexa M's are very lightweight and will relieve you of the headache of finding theoretical colorists and LUTs. I love Dragon and Sony F55, but this is your job and the request has been made by your client, don't let experimental color theories rain on your production. But if its for VFX and other specialty needs thats different.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Here's a recent white paper on S-Gamut3 and S-Log3

https://community.sony.com/sony/att...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_00.pdf

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

You must be using different cameras to me then,

Or just have different criteria.

because although I agree that matching Dragon with Alexa isn't a major problem for a seasoned colourist, matching the F5 with Alexa's Rec709 look is quick and easy.

Yes, and again, depending on who considers what "matched".

The latest Sony gamma and colour science (SLOG3 and Sgamut3.cine) have basically been designed to mimic Arri's image

To an extent of gamut and gamma.
Which does nothing to specific color response.

What philosophy is that?

The phillosophy of color.
For a start.

Have you worked with the cameras much?

You could say I dabble with cameras and colors here and there.

I've run an F5 as B-cam to Alexa and Amira several times now, and if you apply the LC709A LUT, then take couple of points of magenta off the Sony, and a couple of points of green off the Arri, you'll have the images exceptionally close (especially for two very different cameras from very different manufacturers).

That sounds cool and easy.

I'm not going to argue with anyone over the broader image quality of an F5 compared to an Epic Dragon, the Dragon wins (as it should for double the price). But as far as the OP's question of matching a B-camera to the Alexa's Rec709 look, the F5 is better placed to do that. Particularly if shooting 4k 16-bit raw on the Sony.

Cool. I'm not going to argue subjective criteria at all.