Camera shootout 2011

[Roberto Lequeux]

Detail without sharpening. Smooth accurate gradients. Take a look at the leading face of the table where the light stands. Resolution gives you so much more than a "sharp" looking image.

 

[Martin Stevens]

but you're mistaking something. A VHS of Blade Runner was shot on native resolution much higher (let's say around 4k film resolution) and then subsequently down rezzed through the various DI methods to result in that final VHS resolution which itself might be 640x480 or whatever. But as we all know something shot on much higher resolution but then down sampled, looks far better than something shot at that native resolution. This is why Red footage shot at 4k down sampled to 2k still looks much sharper than let's say Alexa or DSLR footage that is near 2k.

Similarly a 640x480 VHS version of Blade Runner originally shot/scanned at 4k 35mm film, will look far better than a 1980x1080 DSLR footage down sampled to that same 640x480 so even if you're watching it on a crappy down sample like VHS, it is still looking far better if it was shot at a high original resolution

Well.........even my old Super 8mm film looks like film, and it was not scaled down properly from 4k.

Resolution is not required to give a film look.....but it is much appreciated.

Oh, and VHS is not even close to 480 pix high, maybe 320....????

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

He he. We have so many uses for "film look". Some even include good composition, lighting, set design, etc... But you are absolutely right. A more literal use of "film look" would come down to DR and color reproduction, and perhaps a little grain.

 

[Martin Stevens]

He he. We have so many uses for "film look". Some even include good composition, lighting, set design, etc... But you are absolutely right. A more literal use of "film look" would come down to DR and color reproduction, and perhaps a little grain.

Yes, of course, grain, which I love. I add it now and then to certain of my digital still photos to help with the dreaded 8 bit banding.
Is there a 16 bit jpeg format?

 

[M Most]

a few comments....

First, the only people who referred to this presentation as a "shootout," or even worse " The Great Camera Shootout 2011" are people on RedUser. Those who actually made the presentation went through great pains to point out that it was a single chip camera evaluation, NOT a "shootout." They were trying to look at several specific characteristics of single chip cameras and compare how each of the evaluated devices displayed those characteristics. They were also very careful to avoid drawing conclusions, or calling any one of these cameras "the winner" or "the loser." Those are things being attributed to them by people here, not by the people who did the evaluation. If anything, Bob Primes made it very clear that there are circumstances under which he might want to use any or all of them. And if anything, my reaction when I watched it - which I did both in Las Vegas and at Cinegear - was that I wasn't really surprised by any of the results other than the rolling shutter test, which I thought was very clever and very myth-busting.

The very outdated and, sadly, rather American notion that there always has to be a "winner" and a "loser" is getting very tiresome, particularly in an age that is bringing us technical and artistic tools and choices we never dreamed we'd have. It's gotten to the point where many people here will never accept any opinion, or even any hint of an opinion, that doesnt conclude that everything must be shot with Red cameras, that anything else is a waste of money, and that anyone who doesn't both understand and agree with that must be either blind or stupid or both. It is that very stance that creates conflict in the first place. Guising an evaluation by very respected industry pros as some sort of agenda driven, biased "shootout" when those involved have repeatedly pointed out that this is not the case is an example of that. The evaluation was done so that those who view it can form their own conclusions based on the needs of any particular production and story. Perhaps it should be accepted on those terms.

 

[Matt Steinauer]

In all fairness, they call it "The Great Camera Shootout 2011" on the Zacuto site. It's not just people on Reduser.

 

[Deanan]

The very outdated and, sadly, rather American notion that there always has to be a "winner" and a "loser" is getting very tiresome, particularly in an age that is bringing us technical and artistic tools and choices we never dreamed we'd have.

Eh? Americans don't have a monopoly on that notion.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

a few comments....

First, the only people who referred to this presentation as a "shootout," or even worse " The Great Camera Shootout 2011" are people on RedUser.

Mike,

To my knowledge, the only website officially posting images, test results, and comments from the evaluation is this one, http://www.zacuto.com/. The heading above the video reads "Featured Video - The Great Camera Shootout 2011: SCCE ~ Episode 1: 'The Tipping Point.'" The clip (what Zacuto is referring to as a documentary about the evaluation) begins with big red flash on titles: THE...GREAT...CAMERA...SHOOTOUT...2011. Bob Primes and the rest of the evaluation team are named as members of the "Shootout Crew." So the nomenclature is not originating with redusers.

There is definitely a tendency on Reduser for those posting to want Red to perform well. Seems perfectly reasonable to me among a group which contains many Red owners as long as other opinions are welcome, which they are. Many Redusers and Jim Jannard himself acknowledge that there are many good camera choices out there.

With respect to the SCCE DR evaluation, I think the tricky point came with the bar chart that was part of the video. It showed Alexa at 14.1 stops and MX at 11.3. This is contrary to a great deal of information, including some from Graeme that has appeared in various forums previously which pegged MX within a half or full stop of Alexa. This discrepancy is the genesis of the conversation here. Maybe some redusers (including me - perhaps a poor choice of words in one post - which I retracted) engaged in a little hyperbole, but that's pretty normal on a list of this size, especially when people are concerned about the evaluation or at least the way in which it is being presented by Zacuto.

I have great respect for Bob Primes and many others on the team. I believe they had the best of intentions, but would love to see a written description of the methodology used, which would be very, very helpful.

Sanjin is the only reduser I recall using the word "winner," but I don't think he's an American.

Hope this helps to clarify where at least some users are coming from Mike.

 

[Eki Halkka]

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

M Most you might want to delete your comments lol. It is quite clearly not only called a Shootout but also presented and advertised with bold aggressive combative lettering/graphics to give it that edgy life and death feel of a true struggle/shootout.
Either way though, I know that no one is declaring a winner or loser but M Most your argument is that all these cameras are great artistic choices for different projects etc etc. That's all fine and dandy but you forget one important thing, is that a lot of the livelihoods of guys here at Reduser comes from owning and operating and getting jobs using the Red MX. As such, the Alexa has already made huge enough inroads into Red's market that it is a major competitor and making some of us lose money/gigs/jobs. Therefore it is a bit troubling when false information is spread about our beloved camera because it is only giving the various ignorant producers out there more ammo to choose Alexa over Red on gigs. Last year's Zacuto SHOOTOUT was one of the most widely quoted presentations all year long all over the industry. Anyone in the lower indie markets I spoke to would say "Oh yea wow did you guys see that Zacuto shootout and how DSLR's did so well against ... etc etc".
So the point is, for these "facts" to make their way deep into the industry and get ingrained into the minds and hearts of producers it does irreparable damage to us little guys who are trying to make a living with the Red. I can imagine a producer turning me down for a Red MX job by saying "Sorry, didn't you see the Zacuto shootout? The Alexa has an astonishing 3 stops more DR! Sorry bud we can't use your puny MX because the commercial we will be shooting will be very contrasty."
Or how about this one, "Sorry pal but according to the Zacuto shootout, Red MX has just about the same latitude as a Canon 5dmkii so why would we hire you for $ xxx when we can hire the 5d guy for 1/4 the price and get the same dynamic range!"

etc etc.

So this isn't a knock on the Alexa or any other camera, this is just us protecting our reputation, when there is clear evidence from the actual tests that the Red is holding highlights even better than the Alexa and film, it is just quite perplexing that it is rated at 11 some odd stops.


Also answer me this last question somebody, the MX has supposedly boosted dynamic range 2 stops or so higher than the original Mysterium sensor. So if they say MX is 11 someodd stops, that means according to them the Mysterium sensor is 9 stops and thus 2 full stops lower dynamic range than a canon 7d DSLR? Come on! I know the ol' Mysterium is a bit long in the tooth but it still runs circles around DSLR's in every possible capacity... what gives?

 

[M Most]

Mike,

To my knowledge, the only website officially posting images, test results, and comments from the evaluation is this one, http://www.zacuto.com/. The heading above the video reads "Featured Video - The Great Camera Shootout 2011: SCCE ~ Episode 1: 'The Tipping Point.'" The clip (what Zacuto is referring to as a documentary about the evaluation) begins with big red flash on titles: THE...GREAT...CAMERA...SHOOTOUT...2011. Bob Primes and the rest of the evaluation team are named as members of the "Shootout Crew." So the nomenclature is not originating with redusers.

In that case, I'll probably forward my post here - verbatim - to the Zacuto group, because when the evaluation was presented by Bob and the group who participated in making it, it was most definitely NOT characterized that way. Quite the opposite, in fact. And I greatly prefer it the way Bob presented it, without the confrontational atmosphere that calling it a "shootout" almost instantly creates.

Thanks for letting me know about the Zacuto page.

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

Remember what happens in wild wild west shootouts? The connotation is "there is only one left standing" i.e. the connotation of the word shootout is a single elimination tournament with one winner remaining standing at the end, from every possible person I've heard from so far, including people over at DVXUSER including Jan Crittenden of Panasonic who enthusiastically said that the "Alexa dominated every other camera" and that only the Alexa stood out from the crowd. These DR findings certainly help people draw such notions


edit: though ofcourse in the end none of that matters anyway because the MX is probably now the equivalent of a $15k market cam or so and the shootout is already obsolete seeing as how the Epic is Red's current flagship and the Epic probably would have annihilated the Alexa and everyone else at that shootout. So it's actually very telling that we're even discussing the evaluation of a $50k flagship camera against an obsolete last generation camera not even half the price

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

But in Zacuto's defense (who didn't measure anything, only documented the test) they were trying to set up a very relaxed and fun tone in the first Shootout when the picked the name for the series.
But I completely understand people who own and know what MX can do. It is only logical to be upset over this very wide reaching and equally incorrect DR measurement.


Panasonic would benefit from a wide gap between the super expensive Alexa, and the closer-in-price Red One.
Also, Panasonic lives in the 1080p world. The TV-only world. So they think Alexa is a movie camera.
This coming from a person that has great respect for the makers of the 24p DVX-100, and the HVX-200.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I know Red didn't want to have the Epic in the shootout before it was fully ready, but I wonder if they would have accepted using the Epic along with a Red expert (ideally someone like Ted or Michael Cioni) to insure it was done correctly? Either way, I'm pretty confident Epic will win 2012 version - but of course I will damn curious to see what Arri or Sony have up their sleeves and if they actually have 4k cameras by then.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

In that case, I'll probably forward my post here - verbatim - to the Zacuto group, because when the evaluation was presented by Bob and the group who participated in making it, it was most definitely NOT characterized that way. Quite the opposite, in fact. And I greatly prefer it the way Bob presented it, without the confrontational atmosphere that calling it a "shootout" almost instantly creates.

Thanks for letting me know about the Zacuto page.

Mike, I think it's a great idea to take it up with Zacuto. While you are at it, you might ask for a written report of the methodology used, camera settings, spot meter readings, etc. Peter is right on target about why many Red users, and particularly owner operators, are upset about this "shootout." It does not track with our experience or many previous tests, and has the potential to do a lot of damage to Red's reputation and the livelihoods of many people. I applaud the SCCE guys and Zacuto for taking up the evaluation, but I'm not impressed with the presentation and I think many of the conclusions, particularly as displayed in the bar chart, are very careless. If they are going to tackle a portion of the business that is critical to so many people, and then make such a large public splash, it ought to be impeccable. I'm not seeing that here. Tim

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin is the only reduser I recall using the word "winner," but I don't think he's an American.

Timothy,

It's true I'm not American because I'm coming from Europe, Balkans,…

The very outdated and, sadly, rather American notion that there always has to be a "winner" and a "loser" is getting very tiresome,...

Mike,

you don't have to be sad because I hope that our civilization is based on Mythology of Ancient Greek civilization when Gods Olympians were ruling and declaring themselves as a winner or a loser…

In that case I must reply now with the sort of comic strip images below that were shot with Panasonic GH2 at the front of Austrian Parliament building in Vienna.

Click at the picture to see at the full size:


Zeus and Hera sculptures at the front of Austrian Parliament building in Vienna.
Shot on GH2 that unfortunately was not included in Zacuto Single Chip Camera Evaluation 2011.


Zeus and Hera sculptures at the front of Austrian Parliament building in Vienna.
Shot on GH2 that unfortunately was not included in Zacuto Single Chip Camera Evaluation 2011.

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

LMAO! :rofl:

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

so it happened again... something really interesting and, for some people, useful, turned into a pointless discussion about what they should call a camera test.. or shootout... or creative evaluation process of devices that capture moving pictures.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

That test confirms me that DSLRs have very low resolution & can't handle highlights...

 

[Eki Halkka]

With respect to the SCCE DR evaluation, I think the tricky point came with the bar chart that was part of the video. It showed Alexa at 14.1 stops and MX at 11.3. This is contrary to a great deal of information, including some from Graeme that has appeared in various forums previously which pegged MX within a half or full stop of Alexa.

I recall that was with Epic, without HDRx. The numbers could really be roughly 12 stops for R1 MX, 13 stops for Epic MX and 14 stops for Alexa, based on what i've heard / read.

When it comes to Red One, the limiting factor may be the 12 bit RAW file. As far as i've understood, the RAW file is the direct linear output from the sensor, and a 12 bit linear file can only hold 12 stops of dynamic range, one stop per each bit. Epic saves 16 bit RAW, which by the same logic should be able to hold 16 stops (so it's not the limiting factor for MX output). Based on this, the 11.9 stop (not 11.3) range measured for Red One with a MX sensor could very well be quite accurate. I reserve the right to be wrong though (Red may have i.e. applied some kind of a curve or LUT for the saved file, taking advantage of the full range from the sensor).

What's more important is the usable dynamic range though. MX is unbelievably low noise in my opinion, i'm always surprised on how far it can be pushed and still get usable, clean image. I haven't tested similar extreme processing on Alexa, but i wouldn't be too surprised if it was noisier.

As far as the DSLR:s go, their sensors are rather good in still mode, and assuming a proper curve being used for video, that should translate over. Them being able to give 11 stops or so doesn't sound too unplausible, they've gotten similar results when measured as still cameras. After all, even home video cameras like the good old HV20 can do 9 stops or so.