Camera shootout 2011

[Hans von Sonntag]

Red's introduction into the market was a bumpy drive with many turns and some dead ends. The reason for this was first of all the new conception of RAW, ISO settings etc..., that many operators just did not understood which lead to many bad results and frustration. Then, in the beginning the colour science was not on par with established digital cinema cameras, let alone 35mm. RedSpace gamma created a distinct Red-Look that many pros disliked, Rec709 was not good either, too dark, too saturated and not gentle to skin tones. The connotation to the HD colour space Rec709 did't help either. In these times CameraRGB and RedLog was the way to work with the Red material but people found it too flat. For rushes this was true, of course.

Here in Germany in the TV-show market Red is burned as unreliable, awkward in the workflow and with limited DR. Super 16 was still considered to be superior until Alexa came out. Alexa's smooth ProRes workflow, the true WYSIWYG experience without any unexpected surprises and the well tuned, conservative colour science made it instantly the number one in Europe. Regardless of it's obvious advantage, the superior resolution, the RedOne is seen as the second choice. Neither the MX sensor with its wider latitude, nor the new, very convincing colour science did not help much to bring back Red's reputation to where it belongs.

Red's new Baby is the big chance to build a better reputation. Epic has a new, almost clean start, is seen as a fresh new product and with some big productions in the back it has the chance to become the first choice the RedOne never was, not even in the indy/low budget market that is solely occupied by Canon. It's always been the fate of the lead to become the second in the race.

Because of the prejudice that exists in the community regarding Red any camera shoot-out won't be fair or even scientifically balanced. But since we make films, a highly emotional product that undergoes a very emotional production process, now wonder that personal preferences, branding etc... have more power than numbers.


I'm still on the M sensor, I still use my old but very reliable 8GB CF cards and I really know how to get best out of the RedOne - proven with many TVC I shot and still shoot with my camera. I did not upgrade to the MX sensor because most of my gigs happen in the studio. I consider the SDK 3.x Red's biggest achievement since the introduction of the RedOne in 2007.

But one questions still remains for me: why does Red not extinct all those confusing gamma curves and lets the user choose between "video" (RedColor2 and Redgamma2) and "film" (RedColor2 and RedLogFilm)? Perhaps keeping CameraRGB may be a meaningful 2nd option. All these options are very confusing for the unexperienced Red user, IMHO. And it would help future camera shoot-outs.

Hans

 

[Graeme Nattress]

"why does Red not extinct all those confusing gamma curves and lets the user choose between "video" (RedColor2 and Redgamma2) and "film" (RedColor2 and RedLogFilm)?" - REDCine-X does exactly that by default. You have to go into preferences to see other colour spaces. Similarly in camera we turned off all but the ones we want you to use.

Graeme

 

[Albert Armes]

Hans, when I did my first tests on Alexa in Log-C the output , from what I understand was un-matrixed and I certainly needed to do a lot of post to pull the colours where I wanted them. The image was very under-saturated even when I corrected for the log output. Then SUP3.0 came out and the colors changed - I think they got a matrix in. Of course, I could have shot REC709, but as you say there's connotations for that color space name whether you shoot RED or Arri. I get the feeling Arri are doing the same thing with their software updates - incremental color science updates as they learn more and get feedback on their camera. Although with Alexa and ProRes I didn't get a WYSIWYG workflow due to the infamous quicktime gamma bug, and I still get issues on smooth gradients on ProRes where it never actually seems to behave as a greater than 8bit codec.

Albert

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

"why does Red not extinct all those confusing gamma curves and lets the user choose between "video" (RedColor2 and Redgamma2) and "film" (RedColor2 and RedLogFilm)?" - REDCine-X does exactly that by default. You have to go into preferences to see other colour spaces. Similarly in camera we turned off all but the ones we want you to use.

Graeme

This is true with RedCineX. But when I work with Storm for instance, the SDK shows ReColor and RedGamma as default. This is because Storm/SDK takes the metadata of the camera first assuming that the camera crew set the settings right for the best debayer afterwards. This behaviour is error-prone. Many operators feed the camera with funky settings that create a look which may be right on set but surely not for best transcoding. I haven't worked with RedCineX lately but it maybe an issue that does not come from the SDK but from Storm in this case.

Either way, many so called camera shoot-outs have problems with the right debayering of Red footage. Often setting the settings right and transcoding the footage agains does wonders. But the harm to Red's reputation is done.

Hans

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Of course the camera metadata is honoured - are you saying it shouldn't be. That's fundamental to the raw workflow. It's been a long while since a camera set default meta to rc/rg rather than rc2/rg2 though....

Graeme

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Of course the camera metadata is honoured - are you saying it shouldn't be. That's fundamental to the raw workflow.

Yes, at least I'm questioning it.

I have the experience that the metadata workflow is the archilles heal of Red's workflow. The problem starts with the ISO settings. There is a common misconception by many that the ISO setting alters the sensors sensitivity. It often happens that people dial in a higher ISO, lets say 800 ASA and don't know that bringing down the ISO later in the SDK to 320 (old sensor) will bring back thought lost detail in the highlights. The same happens to colour. Activating the WB button leads to a uncontrolled colour temperature mess, even worse is the tint option.

I know from many productions that had tons of problems with transconding because of funky metadata. The post house thinks that all the funky metadata is created by the DOP on purpose, and the DOP thinks that the post house is to dull to develop his footage right. You may answer "read the manual" but the truth is that most don't. Plus there are hundred of self-proclaimed DITs that spread uncontrolled half-knowledge around that doesn't help either.

Back in the day of film, I remember well how difficult it was for assistants and DOPs to calculate the mirror angle when you had to shoot 24fps in a 50Hz country. They needed a prefabricated table to accomplish this task. People tend to be overstrained by technical knowledge and Red's workflow assumes more than just a basic understanding. The boards here are filled with misunderstandings.

Keep it simple is key, IM(very)HO.

It's been a long while since a camera set default meta to rc/rg rather than rc2/rg2 though....

Graeme

Haha. You caught me using an old build. That actually shows how well Red serves me.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I get the feeling Arri are doing the same thing with their software updates - incremental color science updates as they learn more and get feedback on their camera.

Learning and improving on the way is nothing bad, on the contrary. Nothing wrong with that.

Although with Alexa and ProRes I didn't get a WYSIWYG workflow due to the infamous quicktime gamma bug, and I still get issues on smooth gradients on ProRes where it never actually seems to behave as a greater than 8bit codec.

Albert

Alexa creates RGB encoded ProRes 4444 files. FCP is YUV based and hence not able to read ProRes 4444 files without shifting gamma (rendering RGB in FCP happens in 8Bit...). RGB encoded ProRes 4444 files work fine without any visible gamma shifts or banding in RGB based applications, at least to my knowledge in AE, Smoke and SpeedGrade. I transcode often from R3D to ProRes444 and finish my projects in Smoke without any problems. However, exporting from Smoke to QT is a different story - luckily Smoke has a gamma control module in their IO module.

Hans

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Someone explain to me again the difference between RedColor2 and RedGamma2 -- I had always assumed that RedColor was a viewing LUT for EVF, monitor... and RedGamma was an output LUT for transcoding footage to if you are going to color-correct for television (Rec.709.) In other words, RedColor was what you used on set and RedGamma is what you used for output for TV work. But have the terms been switched around lately?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Dumbing things down for the lowest common denominator would not be my preference.

I fully understand you and assume that you know deeply how to deal with Red's cameras and software. Many don't. The lowest common dominator is great thing when it delivers technically seen the best results. In the moment it's the other way round. You have to switch off metadata to get access to Red's proposed default settings. For beginners possibly a bumpy entry.

Hans

 

[M Most]

You do have that choice, but at least the way Redcine X is currently set up, to do that quickly means either all or nothing. In other words, you have to select which parts of the metadata you standardize and which you keep from the camera settings, on a per shot basis as far as I know. One way around this is to generate EXR files using ACES (it's in the EXR setup dialog), which ignores all metadata other than exposure and white balance (color temperature and tint), which are the two camera settings you usually want to keep anyway. It might not be a bad idea to allow export settings that allow you to select which metadata to keep and which to reset to a default value regardless of the export file format. That would be the best of both worlds.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Not sure if there is a real solution -- if following the metadata too precisely can lead to some problems later for final color-correction, not following it at all can create problems too for dailies, etc.

This is one reason why I don't get overly tricky with my camera settings. But short of using CC Magenta filters, playing with tint is the only way to reduce the green cast from some fluorescents on locations.

 

[M Most]

Someone explain to me again the difference between RedColor2 and RedGamma2 -- I had always assumed that RedColor was a viewing LUT for EVF, monitor... and RedGamma was an output LUT for transcoding footage to if you are going to color-correct for television (Rec.709.) In other words, RedColor was what you used on set and RedGamma is what you used for output for TV work. But have the terms been switched around lately?

Redcolor/Redcolor2 are color matices. RedGamma - along with RedGamma2, RedlogFilm, and others are gamma curves. They are two different things, and at any point in time, you're using one of each to generate images that are in the right color space and with the correct gamma for the monitoring path you're using. The color matrix is necessary to create images with proper saturation and accurate colors (it compensates for the Bayer color mask, color channel crosstalk, and the characteristics of the sensor itself). The gamma curve is necessary to take the native linear light image and convert it to something that will display properly on a monitor or projector. If there is no color matrix, the image will be very desaturated (remember the original Red images processed with Camera RGB?). If there is no gamma curve, the image will appear much too dark on a normal display.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Someone explain to me again the difference between RedColor2 and RedGamma2 -- I had always assumed that RedColor was a viewing LUT for EVF, monitor... and RedGamma was an output LUT for transcoding footage to if you are going to color-correct for television (Rec.709.) In other words, RedColor was what you used on set and RedGamma is what you used for output for TV work. But have the terms been switched around lately?

RedColor/RedColor2/CameraRGB determine how the sensor's data is translate in terms of colour. RedColor is very saturated, RedColor2 less saturated and more gentle to skintones, CameraRGB is close to RedColor2 but has IMHO a slight magenta tint that can be interesting. RedGamma and RedGamma2 are gamma curves that differ quite a lot. RedGamma is pretty steep, RedGamma2 looks much more pleasing to a cinematographer because it keeps better the information in the blacks and whites. But it is less "vibrant"and hence not as good as RedGamma for editorial use. Red's gamma curves can be mixed with any of the camera colour settings.

For the client you would typically dial in RedGamma. Personally I prefer the steeper RedGamma also for the EVF. This way you can be sure to have some leeway if things get a bit tight. And in doubt there is RedRaw...

Hans

 

[M Most]

Not sure if there is a real solution -- if following the metadata too precisely can lead to some problems later for final color-correction, not following it at all can create problems too for dailies, etc.

This is one reason why I don't get overly tricky with my camera settings. But short of using CC Magenta filters, playing with tint is the only way to reduce the green cast from some fluorescents on locations.

Hence the reason Mark Pedersen, myself, and a number of others were always in favor of a sidecar file to contain "creative" metadata. That's basically what the RMD file is, but in many software applications, the RMD is either used in its entirety or ignored. I've always thought of Red's own applications - in this case, RedcineX - as a sort of guideline for other developers, a way of seeing how Red feels things should be done, as well as being directly useful to end users. That's why I suggested putting an "ignore everything other than exposure and white balance" preset in RedcineX, in part because my guess is that 3rd parties would pick up on that and offer something similar. That would allow for simpler "normalizing" of files for final color work. Some programs already allow a form of this - Baselight comes to mind, as does Resolve - but it would be good to have it as a standard feature.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

This is one reason why I don't get overly tricky with my camera settings. But short of using CC Magenta filters, playing with tint is the only way to reduce the green cast from some fluorescents on locations.

I always use 5600k or 3200k for colour temprature. Using tint in the metadata and relying on it means that I trust the on-set monitoring, which I don't. Balancing out tint can only be done accurately late in the grading process. Compensating inside the camera via metadata leads to funky footage, IMHO.

Hans

 

[David Mullen ASC]

So RedColor is a color matrix and RedGamma is a gamma, which all makes sense -- but isn't Rec.709 both a color matrix and a gamma? And is that still a menu option?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

So RedColor is a color matrix and RedGamma is a gamma, which all makes sense -- but isn't Rec.709 both a color matrix and a gamma? And is that still a menu option?

Rec.709 is basically sRGB with a gamma of 2.35 or 2.4, according to EBU or ITU, if I recall correctly. I don't k ow wether the RedRec.709 gamma curve is still available. RedGamma and RedGamma 2 are meant for usage in a Rec709 environment such as a typical SDI monitor.

Hans

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Mike, if you generate an EXR it will always be linear, thus safe. You don't have to go down an ACES route for that. What I've seen well used on productions is a look preset that honours only white balance and ISO from the metadata, setting the rest to REDLogFilm and neutral for DPX export. That's a really simple solution too and works well in practise.

Hans if you get funky footage from in-camera white balance I need to see that. It's not something I've experienced. The reason there's both kelvin and tint as you need a two dimensional control to balance white - a single control cannot do it. If you want to use some preset white balances that's fine too.

David, in-camera it's only REDGamma2 (gamma curve) / REDColor2 (colour space matrix), although Epic is also allowing a REDLogFilm option. We used to have other options there but they were confusing, so they've gone. As you say REC709 can refer to a gamma curve specification and can also refer to a colour space. If for some reason you want them in REDCine-X they're hidden with a switch to access advanced settings in the preferences.

Carsten, I don't think we want to dumb things down. It's important to give enough control for the vast number of valid and different workflows we see in practise.

Hans, there are two horns to the dilemma - one leads to something that's two simple and doesn't do what professional productions and workflows need, the other exposes so many settings that people break things by using advanced controls. We strive for a balance that enables the workflows we know people use, but doesn't go too far the other way. We're happy to have a dialogue on that balance but we do have to remember it's a professional camera system. Deanan and I are very accessible either in person, or on this forum or via email to offer best practise advice.

Graeme

 

[M Most]

What I've seen well used on productions is a look preset that honours only white balance and ISO from the metadata, setting the rest to REDLogFilm and neutral for DPX export. That's a really simple solution too and works well in practice.

Duhhhhhh,,,, I had totally forgotten about the look presets, and the dialog that lets you choose which parameters to apply from the preset and which to ignore in favor of metadata. Needless to say, you're absolutely correct, it does exactly what I wanted. It's sometimes easy to overlook solutions when they're right under your nose....

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Duhhhhhh,,,, I had totally forgotten about the look presets, and the dialog that lets you choose which parameters to apply from the preset and which to ignore in favor of metadata. Needless to say, you're absolutely correct, it does exactly what I wanted. It's sometimes easy to overlook solutions when they're right under your nose....

Thanks Mike - appreciated!

Graeme