I own a GH-1 and MKii and this is how RED can truly seal the deal

[Simon Smith]

These offerings are too much for too little, no?

 

[Kholi Hicks]

They said the same thing about RED ONE.

 

[Emanuel A.]

(...) these Prosumer offerings are now officially "too little for too much". (...)

Kholi is referring the 1/3" (as well the 1/2" and... 2/3") prosumers or... camcorders.

These offerings are too much for too little, no?

Yes, this is the feeling about the DSLR offer nowadays, as Kholi has pointed out, the same was said about RED ONE.

 

[Thomas Koch]

When the Scarlet S35 and 5d mkII were announced, it was my plan all along to purchase both. I need a full frame dSLR and a Digital Cinema Camera. I always planned on purchasing the Scarlet in June (my original hopeful release date) and the 5D some time after that. However, with the delay in the Scarlet and the manual control of the video in the 5D, I pulled the trigger on Sunday for the 5D. Had the Scarlet been available I would have purchased it instead and waited on the 5D. Now I'm waiting on the Scarlet to much after it ships.

I find the video perfect for what I want to use it for. B-roll while traveling. I would take the Scarlet in dSLR form in it's place as well, if I could.

I'm not going to use it for movie making, but for home movies and b-roll or second camera for interviews.

I just hope the Scarlet is now not shipped until after my travels.

As with all things RED, if you need it now, you have to go somewhere else.

 

[Jimmy Moss]

Is everyone forgetting about the upgradeability of the scarlet? When you D90/MkII/Gh1's are obsolete and your selling them on ebay the scarlet users will be dumping their "brains" and getting the next one for a fraction of the cost of todays brains. Plus all of the modules will most likely hold their value to scarlet users because things like audio and such will pretty much stay the same. Thats a good gear investment. You might spend $10,000 on a full setup but your next generation upgrade cost will only affect the depreciation of the brain module.

Gh1 is a great camera but the D90 and Mkii have to much jello for my taste. You can still get great images with them, but my shooting style wouldn't hold up under JELLO VISON (patent pending). :sifone:

Of course watch Steven Soderburg shoot his next academy award winning film with a Mkii with Jello in all the action and everyone will be saying how "progressive" or "artistic" it is. :thumbsup:

 

[Kholi Hicks]

I really don't believe in that upgrade thing. It's going to be several times easier to offload a GH-1 or MKii body to a consumer on Ebay than it is to upgrade to another Scarlet Brain or whatever.

There's a MUCH larger resale market for anything Canon, Panasonic and Nikon make. So still, the upgrade cost for a new Canon Body or Panasonic body is STILL less than any Scarlet Upgrade.

 

[J Davis]

Is everyone forgetting about the upgradeability of the scarlet?

I started a thread about upgrades from a 3k brain when you have a bunch of miniprimes.
Thread was called 3k chickenfeed. At the moment there is nothing to upgrade to that the minis are compatible with.

Unless the image circle off those lenses is larger than we expect and there are is a small 4k sensor on the way,
then the answer is no, the 2/3 cinema plus minis is not currently an upgrade path.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, I love the idea of upgrading a brain, just hesitant to get the full set of minis

 

[Rick Darge]

And also, upgrading a brain will cost thousands, not hundreds. It's like buying a new camera. Calling them camera brains is ingenious marketing by the way. I think the portable $4k Scarlet will be awesome for the $$$, but it's still crippled by 2/3" chip and fixed lens. C'mon Red, knock Canon, Nikon, Panasonic back on the ground. Give us a basic 30/25/24P HD cam with Full Frame sensor, Nikon/Canon mounts with the option for PL. One XLR port. Fixed HD LCD screen. CF Cards. Make it smaller and lighter than the current Scarlet prototype. Sell it for the same price. You'll sell billions.

 

[aaronbeach]

Olympus m43 [ep1]

Olympus m43 [ep1]

Is there a specific camera you're referring to, because the only camera that I know of fitting this description is the Sigma DP2 and it tops out at QVGA 30p.

The first micro fourthirds body from olympus will be announced June 16th (I believe) and is supposed to support 720p and be about the size of the sigma dp2

 

[David Rasberry]

Hi Stephen,



I'd have to agree with Peter Moretti.

Sensor resolution on this forum is usually referred to in one dimension only, probably because film scanners do this. They in turn do this, because film resolution historically doesn't have pixels. Just line pairs per millimeter (or inch. choose your poison).

So, on this forum, 3K has a 1.6 times resolution advantage over 1080p (3072/1920 if aspect is the same, or just sqrt(2.56) if they're not). The real gurus can correct me if I'm wrong. You have 2.56 times as many pixels, but that is not the same thing as 2.5 times the resolving power.

Now in consumer digcamland, where the megapixel war is still simmering, yes, the resolution is 2.6 times as high. Heck, they'd call it 3 times. I think a lot of people here would be more cautious here and just say 2.5, what with system losses and debayering which still has to happen, etc.

So, basically, I both agree and disagree with you. heh. :beer:

If one is talking about optical resolution, a 3-chip 1080p camera does not resolve 1080p either. A full quality Debayer on 2/3" Scarlet should resolve around 900 lines vs typically 600 or so best case for 1080p cameras on a TV res chart assuming that the optics can keep up. Theoretical limit for 1080p resolution is about 750 lines. 35mm film release prints projected max out at about 850 lines typically for new projectors properly setup and focused. 2k theater format projectors are still 1080p vertical res, so I don't think 3k Scarlet will have resolution issues for most applications. Most people won't be able to see any noticeable difference between 2k and 4k from the middle of a typical theater house due to the limits of their own eyes. Enough is enough.

 

[Jan Pfeiffer]

Kholi,

Thanks for posting this. As someone who's used all the newer large sensor indie cams out there (RED One, MKii, GH1) you've got a cool perspective on what's available now.

So my question is, if you had to shoot a feature in the next two months using either the GH-1 or the MKii, which would you use and why? (As much as I hate to, I omit the Scarlet since it has no hard release date - or final specs - yet. If the Scarlet is announced to ship in that timeframe - a big if - the question changes, of course).

From what I've read, these seem to be the relative strengths/weaknesses of these cameras:

GH1
PROS
Small form factor
Can use a wide variety of lenses
24p with decent 'anti-jelly' image stabilization
Can shoot long takes
Inexpensive

CONS
So-so low light performance
Compression artifacts
AVC takes a while to ingest (or transcode to PR422) in FCP


MKii
PROS
Good low light performance
Good glass
F35 sensor

CONS
30p (for now - hopefully Canon will finish what they started with their last firmware update and give everyone what they want and include 24p on the next one)
Can only shoot 5min takes
Expensive (relative to the GH1)
More rolling shutter 'jelliness' than the GH1

If/when MKii comes out with a 24p update, would that tip your decision? Why or why not?

In other words, which of these cameras (that are available now) offers the best combination of flexibility, performance and usability?

Thanks!

 

[Kholi Hicks]

It's REALLY difficult to choose between the two, that's why I bought both. Or, well, I bought two GH-1 US bodies and one MKii.

Might as well cover the gamut...

But for a feature, and knowing that the GH-1 can do well in a no-budget environment, so long as I didn't plan on heavy grading-- shooting for a look-- and lots of VFX I would choose the GH-1 over the MKii.

If I knew that I was going for a grade and probably a lot of heavy motion, an MKii at this point.

It's a matter of what you're shooting, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot with either.

If Scarlet WERE out then the choice would be a no brainer. So long as it's small like the MKii etc. then there's really no contest.

By the way, the GH-1's lowlight performance is pretty good. Most people are judging based on the F4 Kit Lens zoom. Slap a 2.8 on there and see what they think.

The Jello on the MKii is something to be pretty wary about. IT's nothing a good as the RED or GH-1. So, a simple 24P on the MKii isn't enough, for me personally (might be for others) to tip the scale, sadly.

They're both pretty much equally flawed.

Slight tangent... But that's what this thread is all about... we're stop-gapping with MKii's and GH-1's which are absolutely awesome for what they are, waiting for these same companies to throw something out that'll end the stop-gap, at least for a lengthy amount of time.

A Scarlet competing with this market offering several awesome features is exactly what it needs. And people saying that it's ridiculous to compete with this market, the RED team went out to compete with the High-End market and offered MORE features than every one of those cameras at a ridiculous price point.

So why is it so silly to think they could wreck the Prosumer AND DSLR market in one sweep by offering a camera body like this with their OWN proprietary mount and selling accessories for it.

 

[Kenneth Elkington]

So why is it so silly to think they could wreck the Prosumer AND DSLR market in one sweep by offering a camera body like this with their OWN proprietary mount and selling accessories for it.

Well it's just not as simple as taking the 2/3 sensor and blowing it up to s35/FF35 size. I'd agree that it would be a dominant proposition if they released the product you're suggesting, but it's looking unlikely that it's a possibility in the near term.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

By the way, the GH-1's lowlight performance is pretty good. Most people are judging based on the F4 Kit Lens zoom. Slap a 2.8 on there and see what they think.

With DMC-GH1 G Micro System you can get MICRO 4/3 System Adapters:

then get Voigtlander Leica M Micro 4/3 Digital Lens Adapters $149

or

CameraQuest Canon FD/FL Adapters $175.

So you could choose pretty good and cheap high speed lenses.

The Panasonic Lumix G1 mounting the Voigtlander 50/1.5 and the Canon 50/1.2.

Panasonic Lumix G1 Micro 4/3 SLR:
The Poor Man's Leica M8!

Now I will open a new tread about it>>>

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Honestly, these still cameras are not designed for shooting hours and hours of motion picture images with a minimum of compression artifacts. It's one thing to talk about shooting sequences or effects plates or other short bits with one, but entire features? You'd have to be a masochist for one thing to deal with them as motion picture cameras, but also, your ability and patience to color-correct these highly compressed images and put them on the big screen is going to be tested to the limit.

I don't think you can really compare HD video options on these current DSLR's to what the Scarlet is going to give you, not in terms of shooting large volumes of footage. These still cameras are primarily still cameras first with an HD video option, not primarily motion picture cameras with a still image option.

Of course, future DSLR's may be designed more with shooting HD video in mind.

 

[Jan Pfeiffer]

Kholi,

Thanks for the feedback!! Much appreciated. Based on your response, seems like the GH1 is probably the way to go (for now -- unless RED drops some good news in the next few weeks...)

I'm with you that this is all stop-gapping until someone comes along (hopefully RED) and offers a camera that seals the deal all the way around: the right balance of sensor size, flexibility, format options, etc. By all accounts, this is exactly what Scarlet will be... But it's not here, yet.



David,

Thanks for your feedback, too. I'm a big fan of your work and your "Ask David" thread. I agree with you that shooting a feature on a DSLR would probably be a headache -- if you're approaching it like a traditional film shoot.

If, however, you're shooting a no/low budget experimental feature, then it opens up lots of interesting possibilities like the ability to shoot unobtrusively in public, or the ability to rig the camera in interesting ways (if I'm not mistaken, Kholi worked on a music video shoot where the DP rigged the camera to the lead guitar players hand.)

One of my favorite films in recent years is "The Celebration" by Thomas Vinterberg. It was shot on a first generation single chip prosumer MiniDV camera. Rather than treat that as a limitation, the filmmakers embraced it as an advantage, and did cool things like strap it to a boom pole to create sweeping crane shots in tight spaces.

I saw it in the movie theater. The DV quality wasn't the prettiest thing to look at, but it worked for the film, and the story was so compelling that I forgot about the 'DVness' of it and just enjoyed the film.

Believe me, I'd love to go out and shoot with a Scarlet if I could, but if it's not ready when I am, then I'll go with whatever the next best thing I can afford is that suits the approach I want to take (whether that's a RED One rental, a prosumer HD cam with some kind of lens adapter, a DSLR that shoots vid... or even Super16).

In any case, I appreciate the feedback. Until the Scarlet formally announces with a finalized feature set, price point and availability, this is an interesting thread.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

With DMC-GH1 G Micro System you can get MICRO 4/3 System Adapters:

then get Voigtlander Leica M Micro 4/3 Digital Lens Adapters $149

or

CameraQuest Canon FD/FL Adapters $175.

So you could choose pretty good and cheap high speed lenses.

The Panasonic Lumix G1 mounting the Voigtlander 50/1.5 and the Canon 50/1.2.

Panasonic Lumix G1 Micro 4/3 SLR:
The Poor Man's Leica M8!

Now I will open a new tread about it>>>

LoL yeah I know. I've been using C/Y Zeiss glass in the 1.4 variety myself. But just saying, the lowlight performance is a lot better than it's being given credit for.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Honestly, these still cameras are not designed for shooting hours and hours of motion picture images with a minimum of compression artifacts. It's one thing to talk about shooting sequences or effects plates or other short bits with one, but entire features? You'd have to be a masochist for one thing to deal with them as motion picture cameras, but also, your ability and patience to color-correct these highly compressed images and put them on the big screen is going to be tested to the limit.

I don't think you can really compare HD video options on these current DSLR's to what the Scarlet is going to give you, not in terms of shooting large volumes of footage. These still cameras are primarily still cameras first with an HD video option, not primarily motion picture cameras with a still image option.

Of course, future DSLR's may be designed more with shooting HD video in mind.

Thanks for chiming in, David.

I wish we had a Scarlet to compare too, but right now it only exists as a prototype that shoots pet turtles. So it's not even comparing, but asking for something sooner than later.

As for approaching a feature with these things, I guess it depends on how dedicated you are and how much money you have in the end. That's an individual outlook, and totally respected.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Kholi,

Thanks for the feedback!! Much appreciated. Based on your response, seems like the GH1 is probably the way to go (for now -- unless RED drops some good news in the next few weeks...)

I'm with you that this is all stop-gapping until someone comes along (hopefully RED) and offers a camera that seals the deal all the way around: the right balance of sensor size, flexibility, format options, etc. By all accounts, this is exactly what Scarlet will be... But it's not here, yet.

That's pretty much it. When it comes, different story. I guess I am asking too much to have it soon. Haha.

David,

If, however, you're shooting a no/low budget experimental feature, then it opens up lots of interesting possibilities like the ability to shoot unobtrusively in public, or the ability to rig the camera in interesting ways (if I'm not mistaken, Kholi worked on a music video shoot where the DP rigged the camera to the lead guitar players hand.)

It was actually a Broadcast Heineken Spot. Shot completely with the GH-1, Kit Zoom and a Nikon 10.5 Fish-Eye.

MKii shot stills right beside it. The footage and application was outright amazing.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I thought the Lumix GH-1 was pre-order only right now. People are taking delivery already?