CALLING ALL COLORIST (THE IMAGES)

[Lou Cann]

Hi Everyone,
Thank you for ALL of your replies. It really opened my eyes to A LOT of Issues.

I just wanted to Send you the Image that I was talking about thru out the posts.

I made a compare chart. It has a side by side of the Original Plate, My Grade, and what I saw in the theater.

I thought a new post would be better than sending it on the 9th page of the other post.
Thanks again guys,
Lou

Here http://sharesend.com/79rqu IMPORTANT: Make sure you wait the 5 seconds for the download Link to pop up. Otherwise you will be clicking on AD bullcraps. (sort of like that Hotfile crap)

 

[Nick Perkiss]

Looks like you colored it in 2.2 gamma and it was shown in 1.8.

 

[M Most]

I haven't looked at it yet (can't download on a corporate computer at work) but judging by the previous comment, it's more likely that you graded and monitored in full range, but what was used in the theater was SMPTE scaled. This was mentioned in at least one or two of the posts on the original thread as being one of the pitfalls of not having a proper monitoring path, and/or not understanding the difference between computer displays and video formats.

 

[Lou Cann]

Thanks,
Hopefully, when you get home, (MIKE. M ) you can confirm that. I would really like you to see the chart.
Thanks Guys

 

[M Most]

OK, I finally got a chance to look at this.

It seems to confirm my original suspicion about monitor setup. It looks to me like you were looking at full range images and not at SMPTE scaled images, so when you saw the material projected, it appeared flat in part because your black values were elevated, and your white levels were reduced - which is exactly what SMPTE scaling does. If your monitor is not reflecting that, you're not seeing video reality. This is why most professionals only feed monitors via SDI and make sure that the levels being fed are SMPTE scaled, done be either software or hardware. Since your projected images are simulations, I'm going to make an assumption that they're a bit exaggerated and the difference wasn't quite this dramatic. If that's the case, the main culprit as far as I can tell is the scaling issue.

 

[Lou Cann]

Ok Thanks Mike. Now, since I can't afford to buy an SDI card (at the moment), or buy any other part that pros would use. Is there "anything" I can do that might help me or point me in the right direction.
I understand that i'm asking to get professional results without being or having anything professional in my home. But something tells me that if you were stranded on an island, and you only had my equiptment, you would be able to deliver better results to screen.

You see in my head, I'm already thinking, "well if the picture is dark & flat, I'll adjust my monitor to look the same way. This way, when I grade, I am compensating for the theater."

Now, would that help, or am I just pipe dreaming?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Ok Thanks Mike. Now, since I can't afford to buy an SDI card (at the moment), or buy any other part that pros would use. Is there "anything" I can do that might help me or point me in the right direction.
I understand that i'm asking to get professional results without being or having anything professional in my home. But something tells me that if you were stranded on an island, and you only had my equiptment, you would be able to deliver better results to screen.

You see in my head, I'm already thinking, "well if the picture is dark & flat, I'll adjust my monitor to look the same way. This way, when I grade, I am compensating for the theater."

Now, would that help, or am I just pipe dreaming?

Of course that would "help". It is all down to the level of precission you are seeking.

Even better:
Take your mak to a theatre output a chart as a DCP, eye match your monitor with a LUT in Color/resolve to what the theatre looks like. Repeat until satisfied. Do the same thing with a broadcast monitor. You'll get pretty good results that way. Not exact, but pretty good.

You'd need a grayscale card with lots of gradients to get that ballparky precise.

This is not "pro" advice, but if you go through those two processes, you'll get as close as you'll get with your current tools.

THEN learn to read your scopes. That'll give you a lot of additional info.

But test, test, test.

 

[Iannis Holwech]

Ok T

You see in my head, I'm already thinking, "well if the picture is dark & flat, I'll adjust my monitor to look the same way. This way, when I grade, I am compensating for the theater."

Now, would that help, or am I just pipe dreaming?

You have been told again and again in your original thread that you first and foremost have to calibrate your monitor so it displays the right color temperature, right colors and right black level. There is no way around this!

I link to The X-Rite i1Display Pro probe and software in the original thread. That is the most affordable solution, but it might not be accurat for your needs. To hire an ISF calibrator to regularly calibrate your monitor is expensive.

CalMAN sells a more advanced package where they have unlocked the i1Display Pro probe to be used with the CalMAN calibration software. The X-Rite i1Display Pro probe is the best probe when it comes to value for money (you can get vastly more expensive probes and software packages).

Get either the CalMAN DIY w/ i1Display Pro Retail which includes bot the CalMAN software and the X-Rite software, or the slightly lower priced CalMAN DIY Software w/ OEM i1Display which is sufficient. (you don't raly need the X-Rite software.)

There is also a package that includes a Blu-Ray with RESC 709 patterns for more accurate calibration of Projectors and TV monitors, which could be useful for you as you need a TV or projector as a checking monitor.
It is this package: CalMAN DIY Entry Level Calibration Package.

If your not sure if this packages are good advice, you can read this lab test comparing different probes: Display Calibration Hardware Capabilities and this comparing two different priced probes: BasICColor Discus vs. X-Rite i1Display Pro: Measurement accuracy.

For futher investigations, this thread in the Display Calibration section on AVSForum might be of interest (includes contribution from representatives from various calibration package manufacturers) 1 Pro or D3 if you could only have one meter?.

Direct software packages competition to CalMAN is ChromaPure Video Calibration Software, you can compare them yourselves.

There is no way around this investment if you are going to be a successful DIY grader.

PS: Why you started a new thread about this when the Mods moved your original thread to the Off Topic section as being non RED related is kind of "rude".

 

[Lou Cann]

You have been told again and again in your original thread that you first and foremost have to calibrate your monitor so it displays the right color temperature, right colors and right black level. QUOTE

]




Well (at least to my knownledge) my monitor is calibrated as best as I can do for free

I used this .. http://tft.vanity.dk/ and my monitor shows everything it's suppose to.

I then used this http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php

I've used this http://photogbloger.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-your-monitor-calibrated.html
------------------------------------------------
From my end, my monitor displays all shades of blacks & whites.
However, I've been told by a few friends that my monitor is EXTREMELY bright. Some joke & say they need sun glasses in order to read on it.
But as bright as it seems, it STILL shows all SHADES.

I don't want you to think I just sit down , turn on a monitor, and start spinning knobs to grade an image.
I spent days & weeks reading, wathching tutorials, webinairs, etc.. to understand calibration & color spaces.
But just because I read about it, doesn't mean I "Really Get it" I have a million questions that can only be answered thru forums.

The sad part is, If I spent 1 day at work with any of you guys, I would learn more in 1 day than 6 months reading.

So I am going to put this out there........
If anyone needs an assistant in the NYC area , I will WORK FOR FREE.
I'll get you coffee, clean you workstation, be your GO-FOR--

I'll give to 2 days a week for free, and in return, I 'LL PICK YOUR BRAIN and watch you work.

Just putting that out there as well,

 

[Rob Ruffo]

You have been told again and again in your original thread that you first and foremost have to calibrate your monitor so it displays the right color temperature, right colors and right black level. QUOTE

]




Well (at least to my knownledge) my monitor is calibrated as best as I can do for free

I used this .. http://tft.vanity.dk/ and my monitor shows everything it's suppose to.

I then used this http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php

I've used this http://photogbloger.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-your-monitor-calibrated.html
------------------------------------------------
From my end, my monitor displays all shades of blacks & whites.
However, I've been told by a few friends that my monitor is EXTREMELY bright. Some joke & say they need sun glasses in order to read on it.
But as bright as it seems, it STILL shows all SHADES.

I don't want you to think I just sit down , turn on a monitor, and start spinning knobs to grade an image.
I spent days & weeks reading, wathching tutorials, webinairs, etc.. to understand calibration & color spaces.
But just because I read about it, doesn't mean I "Really Get it" I have a million questions that can only be answered thru forums.

The sad part is, If I spent 1 day at work with any of you guys, I would learn more in 1 day than 6 months reading.

So I am going to put this out there........
If anyone needs an assistant in the NYC area , I will WORK FOR FREE.
I'll get you coffee, clean you workstation, be your GO-FOR--

I'll give to 2 days a week for free, and in return, I 'LL PICK YOUR BRAIN and watch you work.

Just putting that out there as well,

That's not true- 6 months reading will teach you things you could not learn just watching any of us work. This is not a manual field like wood carving.

 

[Peter Moretti]

OK, I finally got a chance to look at this.

It seems to confirm my original suspicion about monitor setup. It looks to me like you were looking at full range images and not at SMPTE scaled images, so when you saw the material projected, it appeared flat in part because your black values were elevated, and your white levels were reduced - which is exactly what SMPTE scaling does. If your monitor is not reflecting that, you're not seeing video reality. This is why most professionals only feed monitors via SDI and make sure that the levels being fed are SMPTE scaled, done be either software or hardware. Since your projected images are simulations, I'm going to make an assumption that they're a bit exaggerated and the difference wasn't quite this dramatic. If that's the case, the main culprit as far as I can tell is the scaling issue.

Mike,

A ? I've always had is when we read "SMPTE scaled images," should we take that to mean 64 to 940 (using a ten bit scale)? I ask this b/c there is also SMPTE Extended Range that goes from 4 to 1019.

Here is an excerpt from the Alexa's FAQ's that discusses this very issue:

"According to SMPTE 274M 8.7, the following code values can be used for legal range HD video in 10 bit systems: 64-940 for RGB and Y and 64-960 for Cb and Cr. ALEXA complies with the code value ranges as defined in this standard.

According to SMPTE 274M 8.12, the following code values can be used for extended range (called undershoot/overshoot in SMPTE 274M 8.12) HD video in 10-bit systems: 4-1019 for RGB and YCbCr. ALEXA makes use of the full 4-1019 code values for extended range, just like the D-21."

I'm assuming that "SMPTE scaling" refers to the 8.7 standard and not the 8.12 standard. Is that correct? Thanks very much!

 

[Iannis Holwech]

Well (at least to my knownledge) my monitor is calibrated as best as I can do for free

I don't want you to think I just sit down , turn on a monitor, and start spinning knobs to grade an image.
I spent days & weeks reading, wathching tutorials, webinairs, etc.. to understand calibration & color spaces.
But just because I read about it, doesn't mean I "Really Get it" I have a million questions that can only be answered thru forums.

The kind of calibration you have done might be ok if you are working on your own material, and are only going to watch the material on your own monitor.
The moment you take the material somewhere else, everything will look different, which mean it will look wrong and don't display the work you have done.

You have misunderstood the important reasons for having a calibrated monitor.

Calibrating based on charts and your eyes Can Not Be Done!

First: The light in your monitor which is the source of displaying White, has to be White of the correct color temperature.
The light of your monitor is most likely hoovering in the vicinity of 8000 to 9000 Kelvin, if it is fairly new.

That means that your White is more Blueish-White than true display White or "movie White".
This will affect all the colors you see on your monitor, including Grey and Black.
Grey will be Bluish or Greenish Grey, and the same goes for Black.

Your monitors White point has have the temperature of 6500 Kelvin (D65) which is a much warmer white than what non-calibrated monitors usually display.

Your Red, Green and Blue primaries is not displayed correct on your monitor within the primary gamut your monitor will show you all combinations and variations of color wrong.
If the Blue and Green primaries are not correct, your Yellows will not be the Yellow you see with your eyes on your monitor. Same goes for Red + Blue which will display your Magentas wrong. etc. etc.

When you start to dial in your adjustments when color grading your material, you affect the files of your material based on what you see on the screen.
If you do that on a monitor that isn't calibrated, what you think you do too your files is something entirely different than what you actually do.

What you think is black might not be black at all, or hiding details in black, details that you actually see on the screen but will be "hidden by the adjustments of your file".
So your Gamma, Contrast, Brightness, Temperature and Colors-pectrum has to be correct on your monitor so you see what you are doing to your files.

There is No Way Around This!!

If your monitor is calibrated you will have the confidence that everything is correct on your part, even if it looks different at other displays.

This which I have written has nothing really to do with the Art of Color Correction. (except a colorist without a calibrated display is totally clueless)

If you get to learn from a Colorist and get home to practise on your own monitor, you will have exactly the same problem as before if you don't regularly Calibrate your monitor with a sensor and software.

Until you at least can afford the simplest package of $249 for X-Rite i1 DIsplay Pro, you should really not be doing work for others, as you do both them and yourself a disservice.
You can even try to buy this together with your film making friends so you can share it. They also ought to have their monitors calibrated.

Here are the instruction video for the simplest calibration settings for X-Rite i1 DIsplay Pro, just to give some clues to the importance of this.
If you have not yet watched the second video on the X-Rite web site (the one with the female presenter), I suggest you do, it gives more clues to more advanced use of the Calibration Package. X-Rite i1Display Pro

Link to the video for those that have problems with the embedded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59R7QAetlaU&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLF6D69749906CCE20

 

[Lou Cann]

Your Red, Green and Blue primaries is not displayed correct on your monitor within the primary gamut your monitor will show you all combinations and variations of color wrong.
If the Blue and Green primaries are not correct, your Yellows will not be the Yellow you see with your eyes on your monitor. Same goes for Red + Blue which will display your Magentas wrong. etc. etc.

Although I strongly agree with you, and to be honest, So far my major issues seemed to be with luma values & contrast.

Even when I viewed the film in the theater, although it was dark & flat, the colors were basically the same. Meaning, what I made blue..was blue and what was white...was white. ...Well ...grayish due to the lack of contrast. But for the most part, I didn't really see any shift in colors..ONLY CONTRAST.



The other thing is although most of you guys here are pros, I totally get the scientific approach to calibrating a monitor. Some of you even sound like you work for NASA.



But there is still that annoying little guy in my head that keeps saying.........."when at the film festivals, I saw kids that color corrected on their laptop with After Effects & burned to DVD. They did NOTHING more than AE & Laptop and they had WAY BETTER results then mine" I guess what I trying to say is... I know there is a right way & a wrong way to do things...but there is also a middle ground. Meaning, Everyday there are tons of kids out there grading & burning and getting satisfactory results. (not Professional results, but Satisfactory)

The reason I posted on this forum is because I DID NOT get Satisfactory results. I did not reach that "Middle Ground' I knew I Screwed up Big time and thanks to all of you, I am finally understanding what went wrong in the theater that night.

 

[Nick Gardner]

So you never looked at the dvd on a TV before the festival? That sounds kind of silly. Shouldn't you be able to pop the blue ray n your buddies xbox and take a look on a plasma display? If it doesn't look right there, it ain't gonna look right projected.

 

[Andy White]

I think, in regards to the kids and their laptops - the answer is a simple one. They didn't attempt to make any adjustments or calibrations to their monitors or colourspace etc.

Essentially, sometimes this approach will yield better results. Despite the fact that these monitors won't have been calibrated, they won't have had such a massive variation in the CC'd footage - so the path to projection (whilst still probably way off) did not involve the major footage changes that your methods did... so, less to go wrong for the kids - who didn't mess with the defaults...

I'd suggest a hardware re-set of your monitor - return it to default. Then, load up the CC job and view it on your 100% factory shipped - non calibrated screen. You know your calib is wrong, so there's no point in hanging onto it... and this method will get you moving quickly, as you can see what the monitor is displaying in it's default ranges.

You may be surprised at what you see - but, having this on your own monitor and system will be very beneficial. Once you've seen the results, you have a start point.

I know money is an issue, but you might want to consider a cheap solution for monitoring the signal in YUV (or RGB) - something like the Blackmagic card (there are various options - but one is a few hundred dollars). This would send the image via a display buffer to an HDMI monitor - (Intensity cards range). If you get one you could even downconvert output to SD and probably pick up an old Sony BVM/PVM (CRT grading monitors from the old days - and then you'd start to see all of the points everyone has been bringing up.

Hope that helps - stay focused.

 

[Marc Wielage]

However, I've been told by a few friends that my monitor is EXTREMELY bright. Some joke & say they need sun glasses in order to read on it.

What makes you think that bright = accurate? Are you aware that the SMPTE monitor standard is generally 30 footlamberts, at least for Rec709? (And projection is typically 14fL.)

You gotta listen to the previous advice from Iannis and Mike Most above. If the monitor isn't calibrated, it's all futile.

 

[Adam Eden]

OK, I finally got a chance to look at this.

It seems to confirm my original suspicion about monitor setup. It looks to me like you were looking at full range images and not at SMPTE scaled images, so when you saw the material projected, it appeared flat in part because your black values were elevated, and your white levels were reduced - which is exactly what SMPTE scaling does. If your monitor is not reflecting that, you're not seeing video reality. This is why most professionals only feed monitors via SDI and make sure that the levels being fed are SMPTE scaled, done be either software or hardware. Since your projected images are simulations, I'm going to make an assumption that they're a bit exaggerated and the difference wasn't quite this dramatic. If that's the case, the main culprit as far as I can tell is the scaling issue.

I 100% agree, but i don't see how he was looking at full range images as most software shows SMPTE ranges. I believe the problem is coming from the output of what ever it is. IE DPX to DCP conversion and somewhere in-between a weird LUT is being added, as most images i see that have been F*&Ked up are usually the opposite and in the cinema they are blown out.

Proves my point though that people need to do tests on a proper cinema screen before going to DCP. Again I say transfer the file to HDCAM SR if you are in doubt as E-FILM/Deluxe make awesome DCPs from SR

 

[joshua csehak]

edit: moved to original thread

 

[Lou Cann]

So you never looked at the dvd on a TV before the festival? That sounds kind of silly. Shouldn't you be able to pop the blue ray n your buddies xbox and take a look on a plasma display? If it doesn't look right there, it ain't gonna look right projected.

Of course I did. I grade on a 24 " HP 2408, Output live feed to 46" HDTV Samsng. Blu-ray it to the same 46 TV , DVD it to a 15" TV. All looks Great.
The whole point to this 2 part-20 page thread is.....When projected to theater, it looked like CRAP.

 

[Andy White]

Of course I did. I grade on a 24 " HP 2408, Output live feed to 46" HDTV Samsng. Blu-ray it to the same 46 TV , DVD it to a 15" TV. All looks Great.
The whole point to this 2 part-20 page thread is.....When projected to theater, it looked like CRAP.

How did you output a live feed to your HDTV? Bear in mind that any graphics card calibs or system alterations you've one will be reflected in the signal your machine outputs (as you're sending a 2nd PC/DVI etc signal to your display) so the colourspace remains the same.

You should zero/reset all your display devices (monitors, TV, HDTV) etc - as you need to return everything to factory reset to establish a clean viewing chain.

For example, the way i set up my Panny Plasma (for blu-rays at home) has a lot of black and a lot of contrast... very different to the set up of reference and grading monitors.

Just searching for reasons here - in an an earlier post, you mentioned everyone always comments on the set-up of your monitor... so that's why I suggest defaulting everything in teh chain.