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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

Devin Bousquet said:
Well once again... Get the RedVolt expander and you'll pretty much have all of that (2 XLRs with phantom power is included) with the exception of 4 XLR inputs with physical dials (instad of gain controlled through the screen).
Hell even the Alexa SXT has a single 5 pin 2 channel XLR input. I can't even think of a camera that has 4 XLR inputs. Maybe a SONY?

I have recorded countless interviews as a single operator with a dialog mic (or shotgun) on a c-stand boom to channel 1 and a Lav on channel 2, both going directly into the RedVolt without a mixer and still have had prefect results. As long as your gain is set well.

I mean yeah I'm on your side. I'd love all those things too but it just sounds unheard of in the film camera industry. So it's not just a RED issue.
Click to expand...

You're right that this is not necessarily the most common feature but when did RED ever play by the rules.
For example, RED ONE has 4 mini XLRs.

Many broadcast ENG cameras have 3.
Alexa's tend to be used in very specific (decent to high budget, commercial) productions that have more crew involved and greater audio support.

I would definitely say that REDs are deployed in a wider range of budget, crew, and production scenarios.

The 4 channel config is very handy on doc (and even some narrative) when multiple talent are on wireless mics and with a boom mic as an auxiliary.
The config really opens things up for audio while keeping a small production footprint.

Provided I'm doing my job monitoring the audio I never considered this approach as shortchanging the audio.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
The problem with putting better sound in camera, is that in engineering, everything has a cost. So better sound in camera means that the product has to be necessarily more expensive, more power hungry, bigger, and heavier. Which are all things that are directly in conflict with RED's design philosophy for their Brain's.

So, I totally understand why they didn't prioritize audio in DSMC2, as their focus was on making a cinema camera for cinema crews. But I'm surprised that seemingly no module, by any company, has been produced that satisfies this need.

It's also important to remember that RED tracks a ton of data related to their product sales and usage, and they use that data to help make better design decisions. So it would appear not enough people bought the Pro IO module to make it worth the cost of engineering another one for DSMC2. Ditto to the 4k broadcast module.
 
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Marcus Friedlander said:
The problem with putting better sound in camera, is that in engineering, everything has a cost. So better sound in camera means that the product has to be necessarily more expensive, more power hungry, bigger, and heavier. Which are all things that are directly in conflict with RED's design philosophy for their Brain's.

So, I totally understand why they didn't prioritize audio in DSMC2, as their focus was on making a cinema camera for cinema crews. But I'm surprised that seemingly no module, by any company, has been produced that satisfies this need.

It's also important to remember that RED tracks a ton of data related to their product sales and usage, and they use that data to help make better design decisions. So it would appear not enough people bought the Pro IO module to make it worth the cost of engineering another one for DSMC2. Ditto to the 4k broadcast module.
Click to expand...

That's a nice PR defense of Red but to get some perspective a Sound Devices MixPre-3 is only $649 (which suggest an actual direct manufacturing cost of about $130) and it includes 3 XLRs, 3 knobs, a display, 3 buttons and a USB3 and an SD card slot and full recording capability, plus 4AA battery holder - all that are not there on a RED and all in a 6" by 1.4" box. So cost and even size (since most of that size is for the added components I just listed) aren't a very good arguments.

Dual mini or standard XLRs would have pretty much taken care of things and isn't too much to ask on a $1950 module. It's $2000 more from RED to get those 2 XLRs and you have to accept the extra size and weight of the REDVOLT holder and another $595 if you want to use V-locks. So yes, $4545 is a lot and is probably why along with the wasted size "not enough people bought the Pro IO module to make it worth the cost of engineering another one for DSMC2."

And at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam - I highly doubt that the majority of RED camera owners do more medium to big crew production work than they do the kind of small crew productions (shorts, low budget "cinema", corporate, documentary, nature, travel, industrial, scientific, music, fashion, reality, etc.) that have been the mainstay of ENG/EFP style cameras for decades where either there isn't a dedicated sound person, or if there is, the mixer was/is plugged into the camera for on board recording. Good on board audio isn't that difficult or expensive - there are numerous cameras - including the new BMD Ursa Broadcast ($3495) - that are less expensive than even just the REDVOLT expander - that can do it AND BTW include full fledged 4K cameras.
 
I'm sorry but that's a ridiculously cherry picked arguement. All of the R&D on that product you mentioned was paid off by all the other premium level SD products already sold. Just like how RED was able to sell a Scarlet-MX, that was basically identical to an Epic-MX but at half the price.

Component cost is a tiny amount of the equation, as you mentioned. The staff salaries, hardware and software R&D, customer support, corporate infrastructure, etc, are all extremely expensive when compared to component cost, and have to be calculated into the product cost.

So no, it's not just an extra 130 dollars in components to give the DSMC2 brain better sound. It would probably be significantly more than that, and that cost would have to be born by every customer, including the majority who are clearly already fine without it, and would likely not be interested in paying more for a feature they don't need.

So, yes, I stand by my statement (That is wholly mine and not a paid PR statement on RED's behalf lol!) that adding the audio features requested would necessarily make the brain more expensive, more power hungry, bigger and heavier. All which directly contrasts RED's design goals.
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
I'm sorry but that's a ridiculously cherry picked arguement. All of the R&D on that product you mentioned was paid off by all the other premium level SD products already sold. Just like how RED was able to sell a Scarlet-MX, that was basically identical to an Epic-MX but at half the price.

Component cost is a tiny amount of the equation, as you mentioned. The staff salaries, hardware and software R&D, customer support, corporate infrastructure, etc, are all extremely expensive when compared to component cost, and have to be calculated into the product cost.

So no, it's not just an extra 130 dollars in components to give the DSMC2 brain better sound. It would probably be significantly more than that, and that cost would have to be born by every customer, including the majority who are clearly already fine without it, and would likely not be interested in paying more for a feature they don't need.

So, yes, I stand by my statement (That is wholly mine and not a paid PR statement on RED's behalf lol!) that adding the audio features requested would necessarily make the brain more expensive, more power hungry, bigger and heavier. All which directly contrasts RED's design goals.
Click to expand...

To quote you: I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculously cherry-picked argument.

How can it possibly make the brain more power hungry, bigger or heavier when audio (other than scratch audio) is always a function of an add-on module?
 
David I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my previous posts, but when I said DSMC2, I was referring to the brain itself, not the entire ecosystem.

I'm saying if you put what would amount to an audio module inside the brain, it would make the brain necessarily more expensive, more power hungry, bigger and heavier. Because duh, obviously it would.

I don't understand what the controversy of that statement is?

I also said that it's not surprising that RED hasn't made a seperate module yet, because the ProIO seems to not have sold well. But it is suprising that no other company has made that module yet because clearly a group of customers wants that product.

So again I ask, what is the controversy of that statement?
 
David Peterson said:
They're asking for better sound in camera.

Yes, that is indeed implicitly devaluing the real worth of sound. Rather than treating it separately.
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

David Peterson said:
As sure, it is always nice for a camera to handle audio better, but the motivation here appears to be wrong. The theme seems to be to get rid of the sound recordist and to be trying to do it purely in camera instead.
Click to expand...

If you're reading that into this thread, then you owe it to the rest of us to go back and re-read the thread. The theme of this thread is to be able to produce better sound in situations where the budget or logistics simply won't support a separate sound person.

In my case, most of my work uses crews of four to ten people. For those shoots, if there is principal sound to be recorded, there is a sound recordist on the crew. Some of my work is national spots with budgets over $200K. For those shoots, there is a sound department. And some of my work has budgets that will support--at most--myself and an assistant. Those shoots require both of us to do a lot of different things: lighting, focus-pulling, audio, sometimes a little make-up. On those shoots, the fewer devices we have to manage, the better the result. Because it frees up time and attention for what's in front of the camera. Having soft LED panels that don't require shooting through a frame is a huge help. Using a zoom instead of primes is a help. Why is it so hard to understand that for that kind of shoot, better recording in-camera will result in better sound?

Again, the theme of this thread is not a desire to get rid of a sound person. It's a desire to record better sound in situations where a sound person is not a possibility.

David Peterson said:
Seems you missed a point of my post, I wasn't saying I always work in crews of 10+ people (I do, but also in much smaller crews as well). But that crews with 10+ people should have not one but at least two people in the sound department, however I see that happening far too rarely. And yes, if you have a crew of a quarter or even a third of that then one of those people should be the sound recordist.
Click to expand...

I didn't mis a point of your post at all. I ignored it, because that point ignored the central theme of this thread (see above).
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
I'm sorry but that's a ridiculously cherry picked arguement. All of the R&D on that product you mentioned was paid off by all the other premium level SD products already sold. Just like how RED was able to sell a Scarlet-MX, that was basically identical to an Epic-MX but at half the price.

Component cost is a tiny amount of the equation, as you mentioned. The staff salaries, hardware and software R&D, customer support, corporate infrastructure, etc, are all extremely expensive when compared to component cost, and have to be calculated into the product cost.

So no, it's not just an extra 130 dollars in components to give the DSMC2 brain better sound. It would probably be significantly more than that, and that cost would have to be born by every customer, including the majority who are clearly already fine without it, and would likely not be interested in paying more for a feature they don't need.

So, yes, I stand by my statement (That is wholly mine and not a paid PR statement on RED's behalf lol!) that adding the audio features requested would necessarily make the brain more expensive, more power hungry, bigger and heavier. All which directly contrasts RED's design goals.
Click to expand...

Not a single person in this thread is asking to include all of this in the base brains. People are asking for a module that would better accommodate these needs, which is what the entire modularity mindset is designed around. People that don't need/want it don't have to pay for it, people that want to can. Right now all the available modules that integrate additional sound functionality also incorporate a lot of other things people don't want or need.

You are literally making the same argument everyone else in this thread is without realizing it. People don't want to have to pay for all of the additional features on the current modules that include XLR and sound recording features. It seems perfectly possible to make a module for $1000-2000 that could cover a majority of the features available on popular portable sound recorders, and that is what people are asking for.
 
andrewhake said:
Not a single person in this thread is asking to include all of this in the base brains. People are asking for a module that would better accommodate these needs, which is what the entire modularity mindset is designed around. People that don't need/want it don't have to pay for it, people that want to can. Right now all the available modules that integrate additional sound functionality also incorporate a lot of other things people don't want or need.

You are literally making the same argument everyone else in this thread is without realizing it. People don't want to have to pay for all of the additional features on the current modules that include XLR and sound recording features. It seems perfectly possible to make a module for $1000-2000 that could cover a majority of the features available on popular portable sound recorders, and that is what people are asking for.
Click to expand...

Did you read my whole post? Or just the first paragraph?

Marcus Friedlander said:
The problem with putting better sound in camera, is that in engineering, everything has a cost. So better sound in camera means that the product has to be necessarily more expensive, more power hungry, bigger, and heavier. Which are all things that are directly in conflict with RED's design philosophy for their Brain's.

So, I totally understand why they didn't prioritize audio in DSMC2, as their focus was on making a cinema camera for cinema crews. But I'm surprised that seemingly no module, by any company, has been produced that satisfies this need.

It's also important to remember that RED tracks a ton of data related to their product sales and usage, and they use that data to help make better design decisions. So it would appear not enough people bought the Pro IO module to make it worth the cost of engineering another one for DSMC2. Ditto to the 4k broadcast module.
Click to expand...
 
Does the chunky redvolt expander give you pristine preamps or is it just the connectios?

From look of it I dont think you gain any better preamps as you can detach the audio part from the rest of the expander.

”
The DSMC2 REDVOLT Expander offers a removable audio module with two standard XLR connections for most professional audio needs. Each XLR input features a 3-position selector switch to designate the incoming audio signal type: Balanced Line Level, Balanced Mic Level, and Balanced Mic with +48V phantom power. Additionally, a 3.5mm line-level headphone jack lets you sample audio during takes and in playback mode.
”

I wish it was half as chunky as it is and had knobs to control the volume with pristine preamps.
 
My initial gripe is that RED sold us a module for $1950 that always should have had better audio inputs - at the very least it should have had a 5pin lemo connector with breakout cable to two XLR inputs - like the Alexa mini - and not relegated the only module at the time that had XLRs to one that also had their proprietary battery slot glommed on to it and cost another $2000. (Marcus: The $4000 price tag just might be the reason they didn't sell that well.)

A module similar to what we want does exist:

https://tilta.com/shop/tilta-red-advanced-io-module/ And I will probably purchase it, although they may have some restrictions given their top connector that is exposed.

My hesitation is that there have been problems with many of the third party products - some very serious that have caused RED owners great expense to repair - so I'm a little concerned. Red repair rates are often really high so it pays to be cautious:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?167985-Epic-W-Side-Pogo-10k-to-fix

Read post 7 for one Red owner's perspective. I don't have personal knowledge of the particulars of his or the OP's experience but I do have personal knowledge of the issue with other owners (I interface with a lot of owners of both RED and other cameras) and given 35 years of experience with the repair and warranty responses from Sony, Panasonic, Ikegami, Fujinon, Canon, and others - IMHO the repair prices are a bit high. BTW Red has done some nice things for me (and I for RED) so I can't personally complain.


Based on over 30 years as both a manufacturer and working with other (major and minor) manufacturers - I think Marcus' argument about the big cost increase is not really correct even considering the design and overhead costs. The price of Tilta's unit is slightly less than the crippled unit RED sold us and has even more capabilities so - given that Tilta doesn't have the previous audio manufacturing experience - it belies his argument that the SoundDevices unit is so cheap because of their previous experience.

I hate to get antagonistic (and I think that people that have seen my posts over the past 12 years know that I try to be as diplomatic as possible when I criticize) but this thread has been hijacked over and over by those that sneer at our desire not to always do dual system or that we should make do with crappy consumer connections or tell us that we are somehow unrealistic in what a manufacturer can do.

I'm glad that all of you that insist on dual system, or are OK with whatever RED gives us, are happy - but many of us are not happy with all the bugaboos with RED audio and are asking that RED do something better - it is well within their capability and I believe it is time for RED to make audio a priority.
 
Marcus Friedlander said:
David I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my previous posts, but when I said DSMC2, I was referring to the brain itself, not the entire ecosystem.

I'm saying if you put what would amount to an audio module inside the brain, it would make the brain necessarily more expensive, more power hungry, bigger and heavier. Because duh, obviously it would.

I don't understand what the controversy of that statement is?
Click to expand...

Marcus, putting aside the fact that my response was to your other post, the problem with that statement is that in this thread, we ARE talking about the entire ecosystem. The DSMC2 system design is brilliant, but the execution of the design has issues where audio is concerned. There’s the Base expander that has one stereo trs input and no phantom power; the IO Expander that is just the Base Expander with a V-lock; and the Redvolt Expander that increases the brain’s weight by 2/3 (nearly doubles it if you put in a Redvolt) and costs $4900 with a V-lock or Gold Mount. As far as I can tell from other posts in this thread and others, the Redvolt Expander might do the job, but there might be issues with random pops and other noises. (Or are those complaints only from the other two units? I can’t tell.) These aren’t great options. There’s also the OMOD, which, if it has decent preamps, could be a solution. I’ve asked if anybody has experience with that, but haven’t had any response yet.

Marcus Friedlander said:
I also said that it's not surprising that RED hasn't made a seperate module yet, because the ProIO seems to not have sold well. But it is suprising that no other company has made that module yet because clearly a group of customers wants that product.

So again I ask, what is the controversy of that statement?
Click to expand...

The Pro IO and Broadcast modules for DSMC1 were very expensive, very large, and very heavy in relation to the brain. I don’t think they are relevant to this discussion.

I do think it is surprising Red hasn’t made something between the Redvolt and Base expanders. In fact, the only reason that makes sense to me for them not to have done that is that they’re leaving that space open for the OMOD and other efforts like it. You mentioned R&D—well, they had useable audio in the Epic in 2011. Do you think they’ve forgotten how to do that? I don’t. To put that tech onto something only a little bigger than the Base Expander can’t be that difficult. So why hasn’t that happened? That’s the question at the heart of this thread. The answer may be the OMOD. But Red really hasn’t said that.
 
Hi Michael

I have heard from 2 sources that tilta is a completely fake balanced in with no phantom powering... therefore less useful than my suggestion at the beginning of this thread. Hope I am wrong but I doubt it..

My preference would be a V2 of the base expander with a small 5pin audio connector that didn't force inelegant unbalancing of signal or have the ground issues (but added no significant weight)... people would moan about the little pigtail we would have to use but at least it would be a better quality end result... red could sell the little tails and one version could have a Pad for line input.

I don't use the offhollywood product that solves this issue.... is it no good? ... why is nobody interested in it?

Re Pro I/O ...sorry we actually bought these and they where never ever ever used. Not because we didn't appreciate the I/O options but the weight, power counsuption, added noise and silly/ heavy in between module made it the most unattractive option for the epic. I don't think one can infer that the community wants bad audio because they where not popular. It would be a bit like saying nobody wants digital and 4K because Dalsa Origin wasn't used at all..

Regards
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Hi Michael
snip:
I have heard from 2 sources that tilta is a completely fake balanced in with no phantom powering... therefore less useful than my suggestion at the beginning of this thread. Hope I am wrong but I doubt it..

My preference would be a V2 of the base expander with a small 5pin audio connector that didn't force inelegant unbalancing of signal or have the ground issues (but added no significant weight)... people would moan about the little pigtail we would have to use but at least it would be a better quality end result... red could sell the little tails and one version could have a Pad for line input.
Regards
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, Michael. Too bad about the Tilta. I was out of town/out of touch and missed your early post - does anyone handle the Kortwich mixer MM2 here in the US?

Patrick Tresch said:
+1

One Ta5 connector would be greatly appreciated. Xlr are made for this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY_hJCYuZ90

Pat
Click to expand...

That's a classic demo of the usefulness of real heavy duty connectors. One of my other gripes in life is that even in 2018 almost no guitar manufacturers use XLRs rather than 1/4" phone plugs :-).
 
D Fuller said:
How good is Offhollywood's Omod?

This one: the XLR2

Does it solve this for DMC2?
Click to expand...

This looks perfect, and exactly what everyone's asking for! (Except 4 xlr ins, which personally seems a little excessive, 2 seems to be standard, and plenty)

Is anyone using it?
 
Michael Hastings said:
Thanks for the info, Michael. Too bad about the Tilta. I was out of town/out of touch and missed your early post - does anyone handle the Kortwich mixer MM2 here in the US?



That's a classic demo of the usefulness of real heavy duty connectors. One of my other gripes in life is that even in 2018 almost no guitar manufacturers use XLRs rather than 1/4" phone plugs :-).
Click to expand...

planet waves makings a locking 1/4" I think still, I visited with Jim at the plant a couple years back, I don't think you'll ever really need a balanced guitar cable if you use a well made buffer, and if you just need locking, thread through strap

steve
 
Michael Hastings said:
That's a nice PR defense of Red but to get some perspective a Sound Devices MixPre-3 is only $649 (which suggest an actual direct manufacturing cost of about $130) and it includes 3 XLRs, 3 knobs, a display, 3 buttons and a USB3 and an SD card slot and full recording capability, plus 4AA battery holder - all that are not there on a RED and all in a 6" by 1.4" box. So cost and even size (since most of that size is for the added components I just listed) aren't a very good arguments.
Click to expand...

You don't even need to look at something as "expensive" as the MixPre3, simply the Tascam DR60Dmk2 (sub two hundred dollars retail) will do as good if not better audio than the vast majority of cameras on the market.
 
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