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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

https://www.sonosax.ch/category/news/sononews/

Thread discussion: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?170795-Audio-preamp-for-Weapon-SONOSAX-M2D2

Looks like it falls in line with some of what people have been suggesting for achieving better in camera audio.

Take the insides of a device like this, add 2 more inputs, and put it into a new gen RED Audio module.
Will instantly have decent RED audio that is more streamlined into the camera system and less frankensteined.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Can anyone confirm that the RED RedVolt Expander with 2 XLR inputs records clean sound? If so, the real issue is the form factor of the RV expander. I agree with the idea that RED left the door open for 3rd parties to meet the needs of RedUsers with options suited to multiple shooting styles. Good concept, but problematic in practice - long development timelines, customer price sensitivity and modest sales volume is hardly a capitalist dream scenario.

As noted previously, the crucial message to RED is perhaps more about deep engagement with respected 3rd party partners well in advance of the debut of DSMC3. The timeline for release of modules for DSMC2 meant a huge percentage of buyers went with the Base Expander so they could start shooting right away. Many RedUsers, myself included, just assumed that a more evolved module with key features - whether from RED, OH, etc - would come along and offer enough added value to justify the spend. If an OMOD with the particular feature set I was looking for had come out in 2017 I would have snapped it up. Unfortunately for me, Mark targeted specific use cases that he had reason to believe would be popular instead. Not a criticism, it's what any rational vendor would do when rolling out a new product line, just didn't happen to suit my needs.

IAC, I'm really attracted to the little Sonosax M2D2 but really wish it had a little SD card recording capacity upstream from the camera's audio section. It would provide redundancy and potentially save you if there was any issue with the signal path into camera. Yes, for the umpteenth time, a proper sound person with their own recording facility is what any smart producer should do - but that's a different thread.

Cheers - #19
 
I have and use the RedVolt Expander all the time with perfect audio. It certainly helps to have a good feed from a professional sound opp person's mixer. However, I've used the audio straight in from a quality boom mic many times for interviews and such. I've even done side by side comparisons with the audio tech's files recorded from their mixer and could not tell a difference from the r3d's audio in post.
Of course I'm not recommending for large scale productions for high end broadcast commercial or film work. But for most internet delivery or even low budget film work I think the RedVolt is a great solution.
 
Brian Timmons said:
4) Clean audio with no digital pops, hiss, or other phenomena that contaminates the signal.
(according to some user reports)

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
Click to expand...

I get these digital pops and hiss with every pro audio setup I can think of on both my Weapon and Raven.. I'm not sure if I have a bad DSMC2 Base Expander or if DSMC2 audio was not intended to be used. There are less "pops" if I use a 302 mixer or a Tuscam mixer/recorder combo as the preamp. If I connect the battery powered mics directly to the RED (without using a preamp) the audio pops are so bad it is unusable. This is unfortunate, bc lately we had our sound department cut- I've been one man banding news packages with no time/resources for dual system audio.
 
Matt Fredericks said:
I get these digital pops and hiss with every pro audio setup I can think of on both my Weapon and Raven.. I'm not sure if I have a bad DSMC2 Base Expander or if DSMC2 audio was not intended to be used. There are less "pops" if I use a 302 mixer or a Tuscam mixer/recorder combo as the preamp. If I connect the battery powered mics directly to the RED (without using a preamp) the audio pops are so bad it is unusable. This is unfortunate, bc lately we had our sound department cut- I've been one man banding news packages with no time/resources for dual system audio.
Click to expand...

Are you on Firmware 7.0.1? This was a known issue (I personally had this issue), and it was fixed in version 7.0.2 or 7.0.3 if I remember correctly.
 
Abox and Helium noixe

Abox and Helium noixe

I too am having issues with noise coming across the Abox into my Helium. Having to record to an audio recorder and sync in post. Not the end of the world, but a time killer when time is money in post.

Using Lectro Wirelesses and NTG3 powered mic.


Curious if this is also a problem with the Production Module that has the built in XLR? May have to spring for it, but it would increase weight on my camera and I'm trying to go as light as possible as most of my stuff is run and gun docu style.
 
Marc Womack said:
I too am having issues with noise coming across the Abox into my Helium. Having to record to an audio recorder and sync in post. Not the end of the world, but a time killer when time is money in post.
Click to expand...

If you at least use timecode then that should reduce the time spent to a snap of the fingers.
 
if the A-box desont have a in-line ground loop isolator built in it is pretty much worthless bulky junk IMHO.... DSMC2 needs a ground loop isolator for many Audio situations...

How do you power you Lectro RX?

Marc Womack said:
I too am having issues with noise coming across the Abox into my Helium. Having to record to an audio recorder and sync in post. Not the end of the world, but a time killer when time is money in post.

Using Lectro Wirelesses and NTG3 powered mic.


Curious if this is also a problem with the Production Module that has the built in XLR? May have to spring for it, but it would increase weight on my camera and I'm trying to go as light as possible as most of my stuff is run and gun docu style.
Click to expand...
 
Canon and Sony supports 4 XLR channels in their latest mid range cinema cameras.

C500 Mkii
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...ls/cameras/cinema-eos/cinema-eos-c500-mark-ii

FX9
https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/han...30919_Sony#ProductSpecificationsBlock-pxw-fx9

Naturally, I hope RED takes notice and acts.

While I highly doubt RED Komodo will support anything like 4 channels, it would be nice if integration (i.e trigger record) with a recorder like the Zoom F6 can be made.
https://zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-f6-multitrack-field-recorder

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Looking at what has transpired since the launch of DSMC2 with the previously available REDVOLT Module (2X Phantom Power XLR), to the various 3rd parties that missed the mark wildly and had tech issues, to the two iterations of the OMOD XLR module (2X Phantom Power XLR), and now finally the Production Module (2X Phantom Power XLR) as well as the Ranger model (1X 5-pin Stereo XLR), I truly want DSMC3 to be a bit more audio friendly out of the gate. Module or not.

RED certainly is a film-style camera, audio hasn't been the priority on the body due to the more typical workflow of having a dedicated sound guy or field recorder. However, the market is diverse and many, many filmmakers need to capture high quality audio in camera and even potentially just higher quality scratch audio.

What I'd truly like to see in DSMC3 is the ability to have 4X to 6X audio feeds into the camera. Whether than manifests in a robust Production Module w/ 2X 5-pin Stereo XLRs or 4X XLRs. 2X XLR stereo is my only really mandatory requirment for any camera system on a high end model. Meanwhile potential internal wireless audio technology is slowly maturing and potentially could show up in camera or via module.

I think if we could turn back time to DSMC2's launch and the Production Module was around back then, it would have really helped a variety of documentary filmmakers, ENG, as well as a few small crew talking head-style shooters I spoke to over the course of several years who struggled with on location sound.

Komodo's focus is a super compact camera, I'm not heartbroken by no XLR-type connection for audio, but I know many people who will be recording sound into this thing especially at this price point. You'll likely need a decent Pre-Amp to make that happen in this case. Luckily those are both small and relatively inexpensive to fit within the general rigging footprint Komodo inspires.
 
My solution is a Ranger Gemini. Thankfully the new Rangers are purchasable and have a 5 pin xlr with Phantom power and hi/mic switch. I have ordered my camera but have not yet received it. I look forward to testing the audio.
 
Small Recorder is an Iphone8 ;-)





Self powered stereo preamp with +48v by Sonosax


You can also use a Weapon (or any DSLR) as recorder.


 
And here on my Weapon MG

Sounds really good. The preamp has a Mixer menu where you can put a limiter. I put mine at -12db and the gain mic at +35db. So it puts the 132db of DR of the preamp to a more usable DR for the analog Minijack input of the camera and won't ever overload it.





Here is an audio clip form the R3D.


MS CCM41_CCM8 Schoeps
M2D2 limiter set to -10db in the Mixer menu and audio gain at +35db
Unballanced stereo out (TA3) from the M2D2 to minijack input of the camera set to 0dB gain.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
And here on my Weapon MG

Sounds really good. The preamp has a Mixer menu where you can put a limiter. I put mine at -12db and the gain mic at +35db. So it puts the 132db of DR of the preamp to a more usable DR for the analog Minijack input of the camera and won't ever overload it.





Here is an audio clip form the R3D.


MS CCM41_CCM8 Schoeps
M2D2 limiter set to -10db in the Mixer menu and audio gain at +35db
Unballanced stereo out (TA3) from the M2D2 to minijack input of the camera set to 0dB gain.
Click to expand...

It seems like a decent setup for what on board RED audio can currently support.

Would like to see hardware like that mixer built into the camera (or added through a module)
and across 4 separate XLR inputs. RED has come reasonably close in the past (RED ONE) and
I think they can do it again.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Brian Timmons said:
Canon and Sony supports 4 XLR channels in their latest mid range cinema cameras.

C500 Mkii
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...ls/cameras/cinema-eos/cinema-eos-c500-mark-ii

FX9
https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/han...30919_Sony#ProductSpecificationsBlock-pxw-fx9

Naturally, I hope RED takes notice and acts.

While I highly doubt RED Komodo will support anything like 4 channels, it would be nice if integration (i.e trigger record) with a recorder like the Zoom F6 can be made.
https://zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-f6-multitrack-field-recorder

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
Click to expand...

Even their old FS7 mk1 still allowed 4x XLR inputs via the smart shoe accessory.
 
I have been working with the audio on my new Ranger Gemini. It’s great but a headphone and gain knob would be nice. I am using a Shure FP33 mixer with an imbilical cable with return audio for monitoring. It works great with the Ranger. I also have a Zoom F4 recorder with timecode and RTN audio which also works to go simultaneously direct into camera as well as 4 discrete channels of separate double system sound. It behaves as a mixer close to the FP33 except the stereo line output is at a lower level than most pro line level signals with no way to adjust it. I’m still working with settings inside the Ranger to optimize the system.
 
Blair Thornton said:
Patrick, where did you find those colourful TA3-F cables?
Click to expand...

Seen those before, but I can't recall what brand they are.

But I know Cable Techniques for instance makes color coded low profile TA3F connectors / cables.

Anyway, just ask any of your local pro location sound stores and they can either make whatever custom cables you want or point you to someone who can.
 
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