Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

[Nick Gardner]

- Let's say it's a corporate interview and they want to review the last take. I wouldn't get hired again if they couldn't listen to the audio as they review.
- My sound guy always delivers the audio files at the end of the day, but I would bet that most of the time, the client listens to the on-camera mix, decides it sounds fine, and doesn't bother importing the audio files.

If that's not good enough for you, here are some more:

1. Client wants to shoot a single 10-minute sound bite to camera, and some MOS b-roll, and they don't have budget for a sound guy. Do I turn down the project? Hire a sound guy out of my cut? Or simply pop a boom on a c-stand and record to camera?
2. I'm shooting a camera test and I want to narrate what I'm doing and record it to camera. I don't want to have to buy a recorder and sync in post.
3. The sound guy's mixer dies. Or the sound guy dies.
4. I'm shooting on a boat where there isn't room for a production team of more than one person, and the client is happy with the sound of an on-camera shotgun plus a wireless lav.
5. I want to record a podcast and I don't feel like buying an audio recorder and I'd rather strip the audio out of an R3D file.
6. I'm shooting a private sex video and I don't want a sound guy watching my girlfriend and I boning.

I could go on but I think I made my point.

I would say you did ;-) all valid points.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[David Peterson]

Pity the number of people who are undervaluing sound, as even the smallest shoots with just two or three crew people should really be considering a sound recordist as part of that. As sound is half of what you're creating, and it is a full time role in itself.

And if you're doing say a 10+ sized crew, then your sound department should be at least a couple of people! And not some poor bastard doing sound solo. Would you expect your DoP to pull his own focus and do his own lighting? Nope.

 

[David Peterson]

BTW I have a $2k 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with all the bells and whistles, time code, etc. so it isn't a matter of being cheap - it is that we want/need something sleek, reliable, and user friendly for "run and gun" and EFP shooting.

Cheap?

Wellllll.... $2K for an 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with "all the bells and whistles" is indeed dirt cheap! (up until the F8 came along... and turned that niche upside down!)

Which makes me a little curious as to which one exactly you have? As the Tascam HS-P82 hits that price point and features exactly, as it $2K today. However I can't see any one buying that currently when F8 is less than half that price, and back when the F8 launched the Tascam HS-P82 was more expensive than $2K.

So I'm strangely a bit stumped and curious as to which portable recorder/mixer you're referring to for $2K? Let me out of my misery please and reveal it!

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

does any one have experience with the xlr module red offers?

steve

 

[Nick Gardner]

Well, after all of that, I did a job yesterday where post insisted on sound recorded to camera. So I humbly retract my staunchly anti sound on camera stance (although I am still morally oposed to it ;-)).

Nick

 

[Patrick Tresch]

For the record, Alexa mini suffers the same shortcomings. Actually REDs at least have a scratch mic!

For the records Arri is working on a solution with the best dual channel audio preamp ever made.
So RED should show the path and not follow (it used to be the way around...).

 

[Adam Brian Dada]

For the records Arri is working on a solution with the best dual channel audio preamp ever made.
So RED should show the path and not follow (it used to be the way around...).

You know how many companies release ideology to the press in order to increase the "next device syndrome" in consumers? Even folks buying 6 figure cameras get it.

RED has no reason to do jack in DSMC2 -- that system is done and just needs to live out the lifespan of the R&D techs in the dark rooms' new baby. I firmly believe that RED has exhausted itself with "let's try to do everything in-house". You're seeing more licensed DSMC2 third party accessories than ever before, but RED also sees the reality that high end tech pricing is going to plummet in such a way that those of us who paid $50K for a rig are going to be pretty unhappy with what's going to come out.

RED's recent announcement to call their top tier cameras all DSMC2 has nothing to do with today's technology or those cameras. It's RED's marketing team's choice solely because the next step will be DSMC3 and along with that, the "3" is going to not mean just "third generation" but "third party" -- RED needs to make $$$ on licensing now, not just on technology that will NOT compete well at what the new OEMs are going to be releasing in the next 12-24 months. I just bought into RED last week but I also know they can't continue to develop anything but the sensor and the platform that spits data into the brain other than light data.

So I think DSMC3 will get more third parties involved to make great accessories including on-board sound. DSMC2 probably doesn't allow for more than 4 audio channels. What if DSMC3 allows for 16 channels or 32 channels or an entire segmented digital pipeline restricted only by bandwidth? Maybe Sound Designs will dig the idea of making something that feeds into DSMC3, and if not, maybe one of the dozens of startup tech companies looking to slash prices 80% will do it with RED's license?

Many of us (myself included) continue to be blind to the fact that cinema tech is going to blow wide open as technology continues to drop in price -- the "expensive" companies today will need to rely on other income streams in the very near future, and to me I think we'll see more licensing and third party involvement. Take the license fee, let someone else deal with R&D, sales and pricing.

Audio for DSMC2 is a dead-end, but I bet it'll be a big feature in DSMC3 via third party involvement.

 

[D Fuller]

Pity the number of people who are undervaluing sound, as even the smallest shoots with just two or three crew people should really be considering a sound recordist as part of that. As sound is half of what you're creating, and it is a full time role in itself.

And if you're doing say a 10+ sized crew, then your sound department should be at least a couple of people! And not some poor bastard doing sound solo. Would you expect your DoP to pull his own focus and do his own lighting? Nope.

Nobody here in this thread is devaluing sound. You're not listening. Everybody in this thread is asking for better sound.

It's lovely that you work in crews of 10 all the time and have the budget to have a person to cover every job. In that situation of course sound should be its own department. This thread is not about that. It's about shooting with one or two people (yes, that happens in the real world) and not having to deal with more different devices than one or two people can reliably deal with and still come back with good recordings. You could do that with Red One. I do it often with my Epic Dragon DMSC1. Why is it unreasonable to ask for that from DSMC2?

And for the record, yes, in a one or two person crew, the DOP has to pull his own focus and do his own lighting. Horrors!!

 

[D Fuller]

How good is Offhollywood's Omod?

This one: the XLR2

Does it solve this for DMC2?

 

[andrewhake]

I am honestly sort of amazed there hasn't been a proper DSMC2 dedicated audio module. Everything out there includes things that people not only do not need included, but do not want. My ideal would basically be a nicer variation of the V-lock IO module, that integrates many of the features of something like a Sound Devices MixPre3. Great pre-amps, analog limiters, ability to record a stereo mix along with ISO tracks, and so on. Use the camera display to control gain and any other settings as needed. A V-Lock Pro Audio IO module I guess? Would be fine if it extended slightly further back to allow space for XLRs on each side, or even just mini-XLR. I would love to see RED work with a company like Sound Devices to develop a module like this.

I am all for people taking sound seriously and bringing on a proper sound team when it makes sense to do so. But that definitely doesn't fit all use cases and scenarios. The entire purpose of modularity is to provide options when people need them, and not having them take up space when people don't. People that want a more serious on-board sound solution just never really got it.

 

[Brian Timmons]

Well, after all of that, I did a job yesterday where post insisted on sound recorded to camera. So I humbly retract my staunchly anti sound on camera stance (although I am still morally oposed to it ;-)).

Nick

:seeya:

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Brian Timmons]

does any one have experience with the xlr module red offers?

steve

I'm curious too as I'm hearing different reports of clean sound and beeps in audio after
firmware updates.

How good is Offhollywood's Omod?

This one: the XLR2

Does it solve this for DMC2?

This would also be good to hear reports on. I'm aware that the earlier module had some
issues related to getting good levels and playback of camera audio through the module among
other issues. I think the OMOD-XLR was supposed to be the solution for pro field audio for the
DSMC 2 cams but the first attempt was a bit mixed.

My only gripe with the OMOD XLR design is that it only offers 2 XLRs and not 4 which I think is ideal and
about the limit for field recording to camera (hanging more than 4 mics on a camera can be a bit much).

While REDs can internally record 4 channels of audio, 2 are used up by the internal mics, and it's unclear if RED allows them to be bypassed for an audio module like the OMOD-XLR.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Brian Timmons]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.
For instance it would be really nice if the module had some small knobs for adjusting the levels - similar to the old Betacams, prosumer camcorders, etc.

There's a lot to be said in this above and it's one of the areas cinema camera manufactures miss big on.

There almost seems to be this reluctance to put audio knobs on a cinema camera as if it goes against an unwritten "sacred" tradition of cinema camera design. It's like a remnant of when one had to acquire picture and sound separately.

As unsexy as ENG cameras are in the production world, they are perhaps the most mature camera design for ergonomics and quickly covering the widest range of shooting scenarios in a single body shape.

I also like RED's (and increasingly the industry's) modular approach as well since they allow scaling the camera as needed.

If one can allow easy configuring of a camera in the compact DSMC size to a decent handheld ENG style solely with added modules
(no unwieldy add ons like pre amps, shoulder plates, oversized hand grips, etc) it would be very ideal in creating a streamlined but effective camera system.

This pic sort of hinted at such a config with RED (sans audio knobs in this pic) but it never quite seemed to be a reality. Or at least I never saw a camera in this config.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[D Fuller]

I'm curious too as I'm hearing different reports of clean sound and beeps in audio after
firmware updates.

...

This would also be good to hear reports on. I'm aware that the earlier module had some
issues related to getting good levels and playback of camera audio through the module among
other issues. I think the OMOD-XLR was supposed to be the solution for pro field audio for the
DSMC 2 cams but the first attempt was a bit mixed.

My only gripe with the OMOD XLR design is that it only offers 2 XLRs and not 4 which I think is ideal and
about the limit for field recording to camera (hanging more than 4 mics on a camera can be a bit much).

While REDs can internally record 4 channels of audio, 2 are used up by the internal mics, and it's unclear if RED allows them to be bypassed for an audio module like the OMOD-XLR.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

For my purposes, two mikes into the camera are enough. That lets me do an interview setup with good results. For me, more than two mics = more than I'm comfortable handling from camera, so there is at minimum an outboard device that's watched by someone else.

But I totally see your point. In the DSMC1 world, there was an audio module that did exactly that--gave you 4 inputs to the camera. R1 as well.

I think an ideal solution might be a module that has two direct inputs (line/mic switchable with phantom power) and a digital in for a multitrack from a mixer. Something like the Sound Devices units use.

 

[D Fuller]

This pic sort of hinted at such a config with RED (sans audio knobs in this pic) but it never quite seemed to be a reality. Or at least I never saw a camera in this config.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

I have almost exactly this setup. It's the original Epic M package + the Red Clutch. It's a bit front-heavy, but it works quite well. If you pay attention, you can run the camera all day using eight Redvolts, four chargers and hot-swapping.**

**Disclaimer: That probably wouldn't work on an interview shoot, where the camera is recording nearly constantly, but I've done it on commercial shoots, where shorter takes are the norm. It does require a nearly-OCD level of attention to the batteries, so either having 12 of them or using V-locks is a safer bet.

 

[Devin Bousquet]

Hmmm I'm not sure what all this talk is about. Buy the RedVolt Expander that has XLR inputs and get a decent feed from a sound tech's mixer. Done.
I have this setup and after the audio glitches from Firmware 7.0.1 were fixed in 7.0.2, the audio in the r3d is exactly the same quality as the files from the sound guy.
We have used it to mix with many times. I've never had a complaint from the audio house.

 

[Brian Timmons]

I have almost exactly this setup. It's the original Epic M package + the Red Clutch. It's a bit front-heavy, but it works quite well. If you pay attention, you can run the camera all day using eight Redvolts, four chargers and hot-swapping.**

**Disclaimer: That probably wouldn't work on an interview shoot, where the camera is recording nearly constantly, but I've done it on commercial shoots, where shorter takes are the norm. It does require a nearly-OCD level of attention to the batteries, so either having 12 of them or using V-locks is a safer bet.

I should have clarified that ideally that REDVOLT module would more likely be an audio module. I used the picture as a reference pic for a potential handheld ENG/EFP type config.

Interesting about the balance though I guess I should have expected that. Perhaps RED could incorporate a sliding pad under the module.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Brian Timmons]

Hmmm I'm not sure what all this talk is about. Buy the RedVolt Expander that has XLR inputs and get a decent feed from a sound tech's mixer. Done.
I have this setup and after the audio glitches from Firmware 7.0.1 were fixed in 7.0.2, the audio in the r3d is exactly the same quality as the files from the sound guy.
We have used it to mix with many times. I've never had a complaint from the audio house.

The quest we're on in this thread is better single system audio options (XLR connectors and at least up to 4, audio dials) and performance (clean sound, phantom power support) when directly plugging mics into a RED since this is a style of production that for some is pretty common.

Naturally, opinions vary but this is the gist of it.

You're describing audio coming from a second audio system but also being fed to the RED which is a very good (best of both worlds) approach but a little different than Single System recording.

Single System is emphasized because there are common situations where production does not have a separate audio person (various reasons usually budgetary) and the audio is recorded directly into the camera and there have been reported issues getting clean sound in such a scenario.

Good to know that the latest firmware update cleaned up the audio glitches for you.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[David Peterson]

Nobody here in this thread is devaluing sound. You're not listening. Everybody in this thread is asking for better sound.

They're asking for better sound in camera.

Yes, that is indeed implicitly devaluing the real worth of sound. Rather than treating it separately.

As sure, it is always nice for a camera to handle audio better, but the motivation here appears to be wrong. The theme seems to be to get rid of the sound recordist and to be trying to do it purely in camera instead.

It's lovely that you work in crews of 10 all the time and have the budget to have a person to cover every job. In that situation of course sound should be its own department. This thread is not about that. It's about shooting with one or two people (yes, that happens in the real world) and not having to deal with more different devices than one or two people can reliably deal with and still come back with good recordings. You could do that with Red One. I do it often with my Epic Dragon DMSC1. Why is it unreasonable to ask for that from DSMC2?

And for the record, yes, in a one or two person crew, the DOP has to pull his own focus and do his own lighting. Horrors!!

Seems you missed a point of my post, I wasn't saying I always work in crews of 10+ people (I do, but also in much smaller crews as well). But that crews with 10+ people should have not one but at least two people in the sound department, however I see that happening far too rarely. And yes, if you have a crew of a quarter or even a third of that then one of those people should be the sound recordist.

 

[Devin Bousquet]

Well once again... Get the RedVolt expander and you'll pretty much have all of that (2 XLRs with phantom power is included) with the exception of 4 XLR inputs with physical dials (instad of gain controlled through the screen).
Hell even the Alexa SXT has a single 5 pin 2 channel XLR input. I can't even think of a camera that has 4 XLR inputs. Maybe a SONY?

I have recorded countless interviews as a single operator with a dialog mic (or shotgun) on a c-stand boom to channel 1 and a Lav on channel 2, both going directly into the RedVolt without a mixer and still have had prefect results. As long as your gain is set well.

I mean yeah I'm on your side. I'd love all those things too but it just sounds unheard of in the film camera industry. So it's not just a RED issue.