Call for better audio recording on newer RED cameras.

[Brian Timmons]

I hear this all the time about RED not needing good on board audio because it is a "cinema" camera but in reality I think the vast majority of RED cameras are not used for a true "cinema" shoot. How many $20 million dollar plus budget movies are shot on Red in a year? I doubt if it is more than a few dozen. Seems like for anything below that level - good, direct on board audio would be useful and for most non-"cinema" shoots it is pretty essential because double system sound is generally more cumbersome and often simply a waste of valuable time synchronizing when it would be so much easier to have sync-sound.

I recently did a philanthropy project in Puerto Rico where I had to shoot mostly on my BMD Ursa Mini Pro because we were doing a lot of interviews and I simply couldn't trust my Epic-W with the V-lock I/O, due to the issues with the crappy 1/8" consumer connector and the possible "audio pop" issue. I didn't hear it on some of the field recording we did where audio wasn't so critical and I didn't have headphones on but I was spooked because I would see fairly regular spikes in the channel 3 and 4 indicators even though there wasn't anything plugged into them. I really wish RED would put a little more thought and effort into improving audio capability. It can't be that hard or expensive since BMD seems to due an excellent job of it even on their $3500 camera and even most of the $2K prosumer cameras from Sony, Canon, and Panasonic have better audio.

I hate to say it but it seems like calling it a "cinema" camera has been used too much to justify some longstanding shortcomings. Especially since it seems that the vast majority of RED camera owners are owner/operators that don't use them for major motion pictures. That may have been fine back in 2010/2011 when the Epic was about the only reasonably priced 4K option but these days there are so many good alternatives that have decent XLRs and audio controls.

This deserves its own thread.

I sincerely hope this post is read, reread, and read again by RED (had to put the homophones to work).
I've been increasingly concerned with how audio is seemingly becoming less useful on newer RED cameras.
While the RED ONE had a rough start with audio (remember the original audio board issues?) RED really nipped that problem
with the free audio board upgrade and it made the camera quite viable for audio field recording.

I still work on a RED ONE MX and there are many times that I ended up recording audio in camera on both doc and narrative projects
and the results were always solid. No pops, hums, or buzz. Connections worked, levels usable, and pre amps decent. I also often have all 4 ports in use with 3-4 wireless mics and/or a shotgun mic.

I wonder about the change from 4 channels of mini XLR to 2 channels 1/8" connectors. Yes the audio module gives 2 Full size XLRs
but one also gives up 4 separate channels.

Agreed that a separate audio person is ideal but that is not always available on many lower budget; smaller crew productions which are becoming more common.

RED please consider more robust audio for your cameras with field recording in mind. It makes life on many productions much easier.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

And why limit how we use the camera? I got my Epic-W nicely rigged out so I can use it for all types of shoots but the recent audio pop issue bit me on the ass and I have less trust in the camera now. I bought a Panasonic AU-EVA1 and likely will be using this camera more often. Plus it has build in ND. Still love my Epic-W, but damn, a mature product should not be introducing audio problems out of the blue. I am not going to record seperate audio, it's not the way I work.

The above quotes were taken from the "EVF differences" thread that started to veer into audio problems people are experiencing with RED cameras, particularly newer models.

This has become an increasing area of concern for users who depend on their REDs for audio field recording and is important enough to have its own thread. My agenda for creating this thread is simple. I would like to see RED make audio stronger (up to 4 distinct channels), bug free, and easier to obtain professional results across all configurations of their camera lines.
I've always appreciated RED's care for the user base and hope this is on their radar for future development.

Please discuss.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I think it's a very valid request as I see people using REDs in just about every type of production these days and in some cases there either isn't a dedicated sound person or, even if there is having the option to send straight to camera would make sense for some workflows. RED ONE MX is definitely better system for audio. I think the decision was made to keep the newer systems compact, audio had to be pushed to modules for those that need on board. I suppose the question becomes, are the modules working well enough for people. I think this is a good, constructive conversation to have.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks, Brian for addressing this.

As a manufacturer myself, I'm usually sympathetic to Red's choices as product decisions are often a lot more complex than most customers realize (and customers can be a bit unrealistic at times as well)

but.....

I've never really understood the choices on the DSMC2 modules that have audio. Basically we are stuck with the V-lock I/o module with no solid audio input or the Redvolt expander that has XLRs but are glommed onto the Redvolt module which is a big waste of size, weight, and cost if - like most Red owners - one uses V-mount or AB batteries. The V-lock I/O expander would be great if it just had at least one (preferably two) XLR or Mini-XLR connectors. This could be done possibly with just a little wider bulge on the V-lock or possibly making it a little longer with vertical or side oriented XLRs.

And this should be a RED module - I know there are 3rd party modules closer to what I'm asking but they seem to have some issues as well. To me the V-lock IO style module with XLR/miniXLRs should be the basic unit that makes a full fledged red camera.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

are you asking for better audio for dialog? good sources sound good with the vlock, at least for me, lectro, dpa mic

steve

 

[Michael Hastings]

are you asking for better audio for dialog? good sources sound good with the vlock, at least for me, lectro, dpa mic

steve

Asking for better audio for everything and solid, professional connections for input.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

Asking for better audio for everything and solid, professional connections for input.

trs connections should be fine, I understand xlr being better for pull wires but there shouldn't be really any sonic difference fi the source and cabling is quality, then again I do things much different than most red users. Also my back ground is building and owning recording studios so I can stream line my audio gear. On board mics and fan noise, now thats a different ball of wax lol!

what's your audio set up? usually a couple of small tweaks can get very good results, feel free to message me directly. if your looking for a locking connection your going to need to look for the xlr modules available or for a fraction of the price rock out a mix pre, which is what I do for crucial audio, 2 lavs and a shotgun

steve

 

[Brian Timmons]

trs connections should be fine, I understand xlr being better for pull wires but there shouldn't be really any sonic difference fi the source and cabling is quality, then again I do things much different than most red users. Also my back ground is building and owning recording studios so I can stream line my audio gear. On board mics and fan noise, now thats a different ball of wax lol!

what's your audio set up? usually a couple of small tweaks can get very good results, feel free to message me directly. if your looking for a locking connection your going to need to look for the xlr modules available or for a fraction of the price rock out a mix pre, which is what I do for crucial audio, 2 lavs and a shotgun

steve

Michael Hastings you've inspired this thread in your earlier post as these issues have been on my mind for quite while.


Hey Steve Sherrick and Steve DiMaggio,

Great to see you both on this thread.

Steve Sherrick- I consider you to be the master diplomat of REDuser.
You always have a level head and prudent responses.

Steve DiMaggio - I know you do a bit of field recording with your very busy wedding filmmaking business.
Would be curious to see your audio config.

The biggest issues I see are

1) the limited audio inputs in the camera - While you can record 4 inputs it seems that 2 are limited to the internal camera mics (scratch track quality) leaving only 2 that can be used to input mic audio. I believe at least 4 distinct audio input tracks (like the RED ONE) is presents a more useful options.

2) Use of PRO connectors- I think XLR connectors and mini XLR should be the standard. They are properly balanced and have proper physical locking built into the connect to make it solid in the field.

3) Issues with getting proper mic levels going into the camera and incomplete support for phantom power.
(according to some user reports)

4) Clean audio with no digital pops, hiss, or other phenomena that contaminates the signal.
(according to some user reports)

I must disclose that my personal camera is a RED ONE MX so I don't have direct experience with some of these issues.
I would like to upgrade to a newer camera at some point (Gemini looks great) and would be happy to see the audio issues on these newer REDs resolved.
The RED ONE MX audio has served me well over the years and that camera is almost 10 years old so I know RED can make this happen with the newer gear.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Rich Miro]

This is a no-brainer. At the very least there should be some sort of dialogue between RED and their user base concerning these issues.

 

[Aiden K.]

4) Clean audio with no digital pops, his, or other phenomena that contaminates the signal.
(according to some user reports)

With the introduction to the RED H1 and how Jim talks about his new 3d audio technology built into the phone, it gives me hope that they will implement this or at least better audio recording tech into new version of the flagship cameras.

I do know that the audio is the ONLY aspect of the MX I have struggled with on a consistent basis. At each production, I just say to myself, "It's going to sound good this time." and every time in post, I just spend a day cleaning it up.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Thanks Brian for starting this thread. I too think that by now it should be a red module for onboard recording of clean audio (great preamp) recording for dmsc2. I wish that audio module would have had been pretty slim audio and had two xlr inputs, a hdmi/hdsdi, and a phones connector. To many in and outputs gives to large module sizes and a high prize.

 

[Bob Gundu]

For the record, Alexa mini suffers the same shortcomings. Actually REDs at least have a scratch mic!

 

[Adam Brian Dada]

At what point in a RED rig is the audio digitized?

Is it analog to the brain which has an ADC to convert?

Or do the DSMC2 accessories handle ADC individually?

My base expander I assume is unbalanced analog so I don’t have a lot of hope for low SNR. But I’ve had the camera for two days and have shot zero audio so have no idea how bad it might be.

My gear includes an F8 and some Senn mics but for one or two man runs I imagine onboard would be useful.

 

[ignacio guzman]

I find this better "in camera preamp" conversation to just be insane. Red already offers a module for better audio; off hollywood offers a better option, hell even wooden camera has an option. I've been shooting with an a-box to sennheisser lavs on my dsmc2 (and on my dsmc 1) for years. The built in preamps are good enough for broadcast work. The internal preamps are better in my opinion than any of the prosumer cameras out there that are popular right now( i.e Canon C series, Sony f series). In the last 6 months I wanted to get better sound though and upgraded to a sound devices mix pre 6 with a sennheisser 416 shotgun. I've used this combo in run n gun and studio configs. If you want better audio just go out and buy the options out now. No reason to get annoyed at red over it. I'm sure they know their consumers want better pre amps but they're a camera company, NOT an audio company. This argument is like telling a car company that you want a better on board computer in your car. Guess what? You gotta wait until the next model to get a better option. So I guess we will all have to wait until DSMC 3 for better in camera pre amps

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

Brian I will try to address how I over come each of these the best way I can, didn't realize you started the thread lol!


1) the limited audio inputs in the camera - While you can record 4 inputs it seems that 2 are limited to the internal camera mics (scratch track quality) leaving only 2 that can be used to input mic audio. I believe at least 4 distinct audio input tracks (like the RED ONE) is presents a more useful options.-Yes 4 would be sick! Especially since I feed my IO with a wireless mono signal, in those cases I use external recorder

2) Use of PRO connectors- I think XLR connectors and mini XLR should be the standard. They are properly balanced and have proper physical locking built into the connect to make it solid in the field.-Full on XLR, mini xlr is a pain unless it is locking, or maybe like a 4 pin hirose

3) Issues with getting proper mic levels going into the camera and incomplete support for phantom power.-yes you do need quality level coming into the camera, my lectrosonic sounds great going into my camera, but for anything critical I do use the mix pre, here is a great option for on set https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ones-cl-1-cloudlifter-1-channel-mic-activator
(according to some user reports)

4) Clean audio with no digital pops, hiss, or other phenomena that contaminates the signal.-I don't get any issues on my io, I do get them with the scratch mics, but even find them very useable actually for dancefloor mixed with the direct signal, just have to get the levels right, I never mix with my ears only with my eyes
(according to some user reports)

steve

 

[Jason beaumont]

I "upgraded" from a scarlet mx to a w and to my surprise the W doesn't offer phantom power. This made it impossible to use the mics I have. Now I have to run a mix pre 6 on my shoulder rig, and run a line out to the red. This works however I cant hear playback on my footage in my headphones. I only get playback from the RED W on the scratch mics. its annoying. I love everything else about the camera, it has given me 0 issues.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Most of my shoots will have a sound person, but there are a few corporate gigs that I handle myself. For those I used to use my Sound Devices 302 which works great. But I have to admit was a little cumbersome to setup quickly. Since then I have been playing with 2 products from Beachtek. The Alexa model and the Cine. I was actually very pleasantly surprised at how clean the preamps are on these devices. In fact the price differences are very different but they actually performed the same. I'll have a full review shortly. I don't record on-board audio enough to warrant an expensive pre-amp and I wanted to remove it if not needed.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiU0MY5nASB/?taken-by=bobgundu

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi.. Most of the tine I shoot MOS and my partner is always in Dual system setups... but inline with Bob's position and suggestion we have looked for sonething that is:

Cheap and reliable for the odd occasion we just want to go into the camera
offers good preamps
Dual channel
48v phantom if needed..
Good limiters
outputs non balanced output for Red DMC2
Light weight so it can be strapped to the camera easily

and importantly for us we can eaily pull it off for 90% of our stuff..

we found this

http://www.filmtontechnik.de/en/products-from-kortwich/dslr-mixer/

IMPORTANT NOTE....and they also made us a tiny 3.5mm to 3.5mm 40euro ground isolator....to make sure you don't get nasty nosie when powering any audio device from the same battery as the camera..

Over the weekend I will grabs some pics and maybe some sound files and see if thay helps anyone... Also it took us time to work out the best way for us to quickly attach and detach which I am happy to share?

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.

We know that dual system may be superior and/or that there are dozens of ways to kludge together inputs, preamps, 48V etc. and (probably) can be made pretty reliable - but not nearly as bulletproof reliable as XLRs - and the info about dual system or various rig workarounds should probably be in another thread.

I (and I think a bunch of others) want something FROM RED that addresses the needs of "run and gun", documentary and EFP style small unit/one man camera operator production. Something like that REDVOLT expander minus the REDVOLT portion.

It is my unsubstantiated but I think true opinion that the majority of RED cameras that are used on paying jobs are in this style of shooting rather than "cinema" as I just don't think there is enough paid "cinema" production around to support the tens of thousands of RED cameras out there.

And we shouldn't have to rely on third parties for this basic function and there doesn't seem to be any technical or business reason why it can't be done by RED.

To my mind this thread should be about 2 things. 1) simply chiming in and letting RED know how many are interested and 2) any input/ideas on what the module should include/look like. For instance it would be really nice if the module had some small knobs for adjusting the levels - similar to the old Betacams, prosumer camcorders, etc.

BTW I have a $2k 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with all the bells and whistles, time code, etc. so it isn't a matter of being cheap - it is that we want/need something sleek, reliable, and user friendly for "run and gun" and EFP shooting.

 

[Kalum Ko]

I think a lot of you are missing the point.

We know that dual system may be superior and/or that there are dozens of ways to kludge together inputs, preamps, 48V etc. and (probably) can be made pretty reliable - but not nearly as bulletproof reliable as XLRs - and the info about dual system or various rig workarounds should probably be in another thread.

I (and I think a bunch of others) want something FROM RED that addresses the needs of "run and gun", documentary and EFP style small unit/one man camera operator production. Something lock that REDVOLT expander minus the REDVOLT portion.

It is my unsubstantiated but I think true opinion that the majority of RED cameras that are used on paying jobs are in this style of shooting rather than "cinema" as I just don't think there is enough paid "cinema" production around to support the tens of thousands of RED cameras out there.

And we shouldn't have to rely on third parties for this basic function and there doesn't seem to be any technical or business reason why it can't be done by RED.

To my mind this thread should be about 2 things. 1) simply chiming in and letting RED know how many are interested and 2) any input/ideas on what the module should include/look like. For instance it would be really nice if the module had some small knobs for adjusting the levels - similar to the old Betacams, prosumer camcorders, etc.

BTW I have a $2k 8 channel portable mixer/recorder with all the bells and whistles, time code, etc. so it isn't a matter of being cheap - it is that we want/need something sleek, reliable, and user friendly for "run and gun" and EFP shooting.

+1 yepp...

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I was saying this for quite a while now, we need a paradigm shift in audio - this is 2018 after all, I can't believe we are still recording on a separate device.

I propose a field mixer with excellent pre amps/ADC, that has a SDI out (that's up to 16 digital channels - should be more than enough for everything), and a SDI in on the camera, for on board audio recording. And yes that's a cable. But actually, on every set I work, I have a ton of cables hanging around, I wouldn't mind an other one, to get up to 16 digital audio channels direct in camera.

The tec is already there since years, no R&D necessary, just implementation - why nobody does that is beyond me. Seems the natural thing to do.