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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Buy a Scarlet, or BMPC

Why not a used R1MX package at DIRT CHEAP. It is a LOT better than the options of a BMPC and gives you the "RED owner"distinction for clients, if you want to rent yourself out. If you have any questions about that camera, check out "Social Network," it looks beautiful on that rig. Yeah, it's a little older but it's still a beast. It's slightly more then a new BMPC and you can have it right now... can you shoot PL mounts on BMPC? I don't think you could last time, right? I know they didn't support Nikon glass either.
 
Are you talking about the BM production camera, or pocket camera?

If you need the global shutter, the BMPC is the one.... other than that, i think Scarlet beats or equals it on everything else (maybe not on resolution, but at the expense of moire/aliasing).

BMPC will be cheaper to rig up though
 
paul schefz said:
the BMCC has slightly lower DR and limited frame rates....
Click to expand...

The BMCC had 13 compared to the RED's 13.5 DR, but in discussion is the new BMPC with a very limiting 12 stops (the mk II has 11.9 for reference, and think about the world of difference between it and RED footage...).

I think people are grossly underestimating the power of dynamic range and its importance in cinematography (ie "writing with light" where you can't write with just blacks and no detail). I'd take a 2k camera with 13 stops of DR over a 4k camera with 12 stops of DR any day of the week. The difference in rolloff on the highlights is night and day.
 
When Black Magic first announced their cinema camera last year, their number one selling point was its dynamic range, giving the camera the ability to produce a very cinematic look. Now, a year later, they have released a camera with less dynamic range than their original one. This choice, to release a camera that ignores the value of dynamic range, to me, contradicts their entire philosophy.
 
James_Mills said:
The BMCC had 13 compared to the RED's 13.5 DR, but in discussion is the new BMPC with a very limiting 12 stops (the mk II has 11.9 for reference, and think about the world of difference between it and RED footage...).

I think people are grossly underestimating the power of dynamic range and its importance in cinematography (ie "writing with light" where you can't write with just blacks and no detail). I'd take a 2k camera with 13 stops of DR over a 4k camera with 12 stops of DR any day of the week. The difference in rolloff on the highlights is night and day.
Click to expand...


I would take all those numbers with a grain of salt though since they all mean different things and are measured in different ways... Are you saying the 5Dmk2 had 11.9 stops of DR? Maybe in 22MP RAW stills mode... definitely not in video mode, and the difference between that and RED has to do with a lot more things than DR specs different people measured in different ways. That said, I completely agree about DR being a much bigger deal in most cases than resolution, but Scarlet is not really king of the hill for DR these days since most competing cameras are 12-14stops which probably is a range that juts barely covers the room for error when comparing DR numbers measured through different methods.

To the OP, do you need 4k? Why did you like shooting with Scarlet so much? I would expect a 2k/1080p Sony or Canon camera would be much more suited for most documentary work (C100/C300/FS700/F5 are in your price range) since they all have similar DR around 12-14 stops (and more useable in a way because they have adjustable gain) but are more fully featured cameras that use 3-10x less battery power and can run all day without card changes on inexpensive cards and have very easy post workflows with low processing overhead relative to RED and can shoot in much lower lighting environments. I agree Scarlet has the capability to produce more pleasing, sharper images with a bit more range and less compression than those cameras, but only really if it is lit for properly. Canon and Sony's competing cameras allow for quite a bit more flexibility in lighting levels.
 
What Noah says makes a lot of sense.

Why not jump at the Canon C100 at $5500? It shoots 4k as well and spits out a very pristine 1080p, even on internal SD cards. You get Canon Log and Wide DR picture profiles that both gives you 12 real stops of DR with slightly different gamma curves. It's the widly accepted C300 image at a serious discount. All that in available light.

It is also a camera that you can own privately without ever questioning yourself if it was the right investment, or feel the preassure/need to make money immediately.

It's an ideal camera for documentary work for a longer period where you follow someone and can't control each setup.
 
Very disappointing that RED doesn't plan a Scarlet D anytime soon. And I can't for the life of me see the angle where it's a good business decision.

Lots of current RED customers are sighing in relief I'm sure, and that is about the only reason I see: protecting the current user base. But it seems so costly.

As a potential new owner I'd first have to buy an "old" camera at a serious price and then upgrade. Makes no sense and, needless to say, it won't happen.

Naw... RED 2013 lineup ought to be:


  • New Scarlet Dragon, 2.5" SSD side module, mount and side grip for $10k
  • New Epic Dragon, 2.5" SSD side module, mount and side grip for $20k
  • Sensor upgrades for Scarlet and Epic owners $3-5k
  • the above mentioned 2.5" SSD module is for off the shelf SSDs that we all know would work without any problems at all


Didn't RED get the memo? :001_cool:

Oh, and no discounts of favors ever again. Just keep the good stuff coming. It's up to each owner to upgrade or sell "old" stuff.
 
FWIW, here is my opinion (keep in mind I own a Scarlet, LOVE IT, and am very excited to eventually upgrade to epic, then Epic Dragon)

With the budget you have, if I were in your position, I would get the new 4k BM camera. Because you will now have plenty of money to buy a great set of fast lenses (Rokinon, ZE, CP Superspeeds, whatever) plenty of batteries, Redrock remote follow focus, SSD media, lights, sound gear.... And maybe a new computer. That is a huge increase to production quality.

What I personally want next in a camera is high frame rate, then low light performance is a close second. To get what I want is an epic or epic dragon. But in the price you are at, it's not an option, and I dislike 2k high speed on Scarlet (though I use it carefully), so being resigned to lower FPS, that is my recommendation.
 
I can't find the processing bit-depth of the Black Magic 4K-HD camera. Anyone has this information?
 
My Fuji X100 still camera features 11 stops of dynamic range and this is plenty, so the 12 stops that is part of the BMD Production camera should be more than fine. If you happen to use Facebook, here's a publicly accessible album of photos taken with my X100. You'll see the dynamic range is fine (and so too should be in the BMD Production cam) - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151360571487949.481032.503362948&type=3
 
Joseph Podlesnik said:
My Fuji X100 still camera features 11 stops of dynamic range and this is plenty, so the 12 stops that is part of the BMD Production camera should be more than fine. If you happen to use Facebook, here's a publicly accessible album of photos taken with my X100. You'll see the dynamic range is fine (and so too should be in the BMD Production cam) - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151360571487949.481032.503362948&type=3
Click to expand...

Love the X100. It's done me well.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
I would take all those numbers with a grain of salt though since they all mean different things and are measured in different ways... Are you saying the 5Dmk2 had 11.9 stops of DR? Maybe in 22MP RAW stills mode... definitely not in video mode, and the difference between that and RED has to do with a lot more things than DR specs different people measured in different ways. That said, I completely agree about DR being a much bigger deal in most cases than resolution, but Scarlet is not really king of the hill for DR these days since most competing cameras are 12-14stops which probably is a range that juts barely covers the room for error when comparing DR numbers measured through different methods.

To the OP, do you need 4k? Why did you like shooting with Scarlet so much? I would expect a 2k/1080p Sony or Canon camera would be much more suited for most documentary work (C100/C300/FS700/F5 are in your price range) since they all have similar DR around 12-14 stops (and more useable in a way because they have adjustable gain) but are more fully featured cameras that use 3-10x less battery power and can run all day without card changes on inexpensive cards and have very easy post workflows with low processing overhead relative to RED and can shoot in much lower lighting environments. I agree Scarlet has the capability to produce more pleasing, sharper images with a bit more range and less compression than those cameras, but only really if it is lit for properly. Canon and Sony's competing cameras allow for quite a bit more flexibility in lighting levels.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but again, this is just wrong. I've shot multiple projects with the C300 and anyone claiming its DR is comparable to a Scarlet's is making an indubitably false statement. A C300's DR is much closer to that of a 5DmkII's (the same camera you're claiming does not have 11.9) than a Scarlet's.
 
Joseph Podlesnik said:
My Fuji X100 still camera features 11 stops of dynamic range and this is plenty, so the 12 stops that is part of the BMD Production camera should be more than fine. If you happen to use Facebook, here's a publicly accessible album of photos taken with my X100. You'll see the dynamic range is fine (and so too should be in the BMD Production cam) - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151360571487949.481032.503362948&type=3
Click to expand...

I'm also pretty sure that a still camera's range (especially after you've color corrected these examples) is not a good indicator as to what to expect from the BMCC's.

The proof is in the pudding, you guys. Shoot a high contrast scene at sunset with a backlight key on a RED or Alexa and then on a C300 / BMCC / any camera not called a "RED" or "Alexa". I promise you this whole "it's not that big of a difference" argument will be put to rest.

The whole beauty of the original BMC was that it had 13 stops of DR for that cheap; it was arguing that it was the first affordable cinema quality camera. And it is. If they could figure out some sort of compression system for its RAW files I would take that over two BMCCs any day of the week.
 
I did a test shoot with the BMCC 2.5k and the Red one a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to see an A / B comparison to see if the BMCC could be used as a backup or B Camera one some projects. It became an unfair comparison when the owner of the BMCC showed up with some cheap zooms and I was using RPP. I did learn something that one person pointed out already, and that is even in 2.5k the files sizes are very large. That is something that should be considered. For me it became an issue. The amount of time it takes to transfer the data off the SSD's became a hassle. It also ate up a lot of my on site storage. Which has to be doubled for backups. With that and some of the things that have already been pointed out in the thread, I decided to save up and buy a Scarlet to go with the Red One instead.
 
Joseph Podlesnik said:
My Fuji X100 still camera features 11 stops of dynamic range and this is plenty, so the 12 stops that is part of the BMD Production camera should be more than fine. If you happen to use Facebook, here's a publicly accessible album of photos taken with my X100. You'll see the dynamic range is fine (and so too should be in the BMD Production cam) - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151360571487949.481032.503362948&type=3
Click to expand...

Fine until it lets you down, or you loose 2 hours of set time because you need more lighting to fix shortcomings.
 
James_Mills said:
I'm also pretty sure that a still camera's range (especially after you've color corrected these examples) is not a good indicator as to what to expect from the BMCC's.

The proof is in the pudding, you guys. Shoot a high contrast scene at sunset with a backlight key on a RED or Alexa and then on a C300 / BMCC / any camera not called a "RED" or "Alexa". I promise you this whole "it's not that big of a difference" argument will be put to rest.

The whole beauty of the original BMC was that it had 13 stops of DR for that cheap; it was arguing that it was the first affordable cinema quality camera. And it is. If they could figure out some sort of compression system for its RAW files I would take that over two BMCCs any day of the week.
Click to expand...

I would not - because no OLPF means all your actresses start out looking uglier than in the exact same set-up using Red or Alexa - because pores and wrinkles have the equivalent of a sharpening effect applied to them because of lack of OLPF. There are no post tools that will get you back the crisp yet smooth skin that Alexa and Red gave you in the first place. BMC has the equivalent of a "make uglier" filter on it at all times. That's what you get for buying/renting "cheapest" rather than best.
 
Carey Lee Coffey said:
When Black Magic first announced their cinema camera last year, their number one selling point was its dynamic range, giving the camera the ability to produce a very cinematic look. Now, a year later, they have released a camera with less dynamic range than their original one. This choice, to release a camera that ignores the value of dynamic range, to me, contradicts their entire philosophy.
Click to expand...

Their philosophy when it comes to cameras is a race to the bottom with cheap crap full of problems and caveats aimed at the bottom of the market, where not so good is deemed "good enough". In that way their philosophy has remained consistent.
 
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