But it's HD?

[Mark Phelan]

Having a bit of fun with a client friend who is putting together a short video of some interviews she shot with her Flip camera. Since I had produced a recent project for them, she wanted to include some of the footage along with hers. No sweat, she wondered if it would look any different from what she shot with her Flip, so I had to dig around and find some numbers for comparison.

Now I didn't spend a lot of time, so some of the numbers might be off, but it still makes for a silly comparison because after all, it IS HD. That's the magic word. HD. It's what you shoot with your fancy "Hollywood" camera, right? This is what we're up against folks. Semantics is a constant battle, not only in politics but in RED world too.

So, here are the numbers:

Flip phone data rate: 9.0Mbps
RED camera data rate @ 8:1 compression: 3.34Gbps

But the good news is, they're the same because they are both HD! :mad2:

 

[Onar Stangeland]

This is all to familiar! :yesnod:

 

[Roger Valdes]

To most people you really have to point out what the difference is, otherwise they won't notice.

 

[Christopher Mills]

you didn't want to show her the footage?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Did the footage cut together seamlessly?

 

[Mark Phelan]

you didn't want to show her the footage?

No need, they're both HD, plus she has seen both already.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Did the footage cut together seamlessly?

This has to be determined, getting ready to drop off the file. Although, to be fair, after I showed her some of the differences, she's thinking she'll use is separately from the other footage.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I understand this might not fly for interviews, but in general, intercutting Red and other sources can make for compelling work. 16mm, 8mm, other Raw cameras, flipcams, shitty GoPros, pinhole cameras, camera phones anything. Difference is we're not trying to mask the incredible difference but let it speak for the story.

Intercutting 16 and Red is especially awesome. Every time Jim writes "film is dead" my head hangs.

Should 4K make film and flipcams obsolete or provide a badass alternative? Careful with your answer, if you're asking for 4K flipcams you're want to destroy the margin that makes your camera different from the others...

Throw em all into the ring together and give it to a great editor... watch the British show Black Mirror and you'll see what I mean!

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

This is currently happening to me right now. Doing a big internal "docu-series" for a large cable entity. They had us film half the videos on Epic and half on a Panasonic AVCHD.

"You wont really be able to see the difference, right? They're both HD."

Whatever. I still get paid. They can mix in some Hi8 footage for all I care.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Why are people asking you?

Because they know there is a difference. Because they wish it wasn't there. Because they're trying to minimize it.

Why are you all upset?

Because you know there is a difference. Because you wish it wasn't there. Because you wish they'd just rent your damn Red every day.

Somehow it seems all the frustration is coming from a difference everyone knows is there. Your clients are begging you to wash away their concerns and you're serving up honesty. Good show.

If you have to intercut, go for it in a meaningful way, instead of trying to hide it... For example, use AVCHD for your more "documentary," "raw footage" looking stuff. Shitty video feels like truth to people, whereas Red feels like a well told story. Use Red for whatever you want to feel more poignant--certain moments, interviews, a unique sequence, etc. Jiro Dreams of Sushi is a great example of how Red feels weightier than video; use that when you want that feeling, use a DVX or whatever when you want it to feel like "real life."

It's like the difference between an orchestra and a single instrument. Sometimes you want rich complexity, sometimes you want direct simplicity. Cameras are instruments--in the least poetic definition of the word, they really are just that, instruments. Disparaging one because it has to sing next to the other is a lame way to make music.

 

[Eric Cameron]

Your math on Red is a little off... 3.36 Gbps is over 400MBps (Bytes not bits). Epic 5K FF at 24FPS, 8:1 is somewhere around 34MBps, which is more like 0.3Gbps. 9.0Mbps (flip) is about 1.13MBps. So it's more like a factor of 30:1...

 

[Scott Crawley]

Good points. If you can leverage the difference to serve the story then why worry? Pick your battles. Give it an honest effort. You may surprise yourself.

Why are people asking you?

Because they know there is a difference. Because they wish it wasn't there. Because they're trying to minimize it.

Why are you all upset?

Because you know there is a difference. Because you wish it wasn't there. Because you wish they'd just rent your damn Red every day.

Somehow it seems all the frustration is coming from a difference everyone knows is there. Your clients are begging you to wash away their concerns and you're serving up honesty. Good show.

If you have to intercut, go for it in a meaningful way, instead of trying to hide it... For example, use AVCHD for your more "documentary," "raw footage" looking stuff. Shitty video feels like truth to people, whereas Red feels like a well told story. Use Red for whatever you want to feel more poignant--certain moments, interviews, a unique sequence, etc. Jiro Dreams of Sushi is a great example of how Red feels weightier than video; use that when you want that feeling, use a DVX or whatever when you want it to feel like "real life."

It's like the difference between an orchestra and a single instrument. Sometimes you want rich complexity, sometimes you want direct simplicity. Cameras are instruments--in the least poetic definition of the word, they really are just that, instruments. Disparaging one because it has to sing next to the other is a lame way to make music.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Why are you all upset?

It's like the difference between an orchestra and a single instrument. Sometimes you want rich complexity, sometimes you want direct simplicity. Cameras are instruments--in the least poetic definition of the word, they really are just that, instruments. Disparaging one because it has to sing next to the other is a lame way to make music.

I usually get upset because some stupid production company will try to save some pennies and then when we do post the client comes back and complains that their footage is all soft and asks us to make it sharper. Not to mention the headache of trying to make bad footage look decent. So instead of blaming the people responsible who shot it--post often takes the blame for production.

 

[Scott Crawley]

True. It is prudent then to sit them both down with a sample and have each sign off on it before you do too much work. If that is at all possible.

I usually get upset because some stupid production company will try to save some pennies and then when we do post the client comes back and complains that their footage is all soft and asks us to make it sharper. Not to mention the headache of trying to make bad footage look decent. So instead of blaming the people responsible who shot it--post often takes the blame for production.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Gavin, that's a totally different and utterly frustrating situation to be in. Sorry to hear it. Makes me feel very lucky for always being able to say at the start: "sure we can shoot that camera. It will be muddier and softer."

I always enjoy explaining what I mean by "mud..."

 

[Mark Phelan]

Your math on Red is a little off... 3.36 Gbps is over 400MBps (Bytes not bits). Epic 5K FF at 24FPS, 8:1 is somewhere around 34MBps, which is more like 0.3Gbps. 9.0Mbps (flip) is about 1.13MBps. So it's more like a factor of 30:1...

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I usually get upset because some stupid production company will try to save some pennies and then when we do post the client comes back and complains that their footage is all soft and asks us to make it sharper. Not to mention the headache of trying to make bad footage look decent. So instead of blaming the people responsible who shot it--post often takes the blame for production.

+1.

Exactly. As we often edit what we shoot, at this point we patently refuse to shoot on anything BELOW our RED's standards. It's just not worth it. If the client wants to save pennies and work with someone else, then so be it. Edits get messy. It's important to feed the beast with great footage that gives you lots of flexibility after the fact.

That's what shoots are for. To serve the edit.