Build 15 update...

[Andrew M.]

“The small companies, as arri, aaton and panavision, who manufacture and rent 35mm cameras are the ones who are mainly affected.”

This is in short term, if we are talking long term the broadcast industry just in US is using more equipment/cameras then the whole world cinema together.

“In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video”

I have seen this argument 5 years ago with DLSR, “in few years cell phones will have 5MP cameras build in” and what? They do, yet we are buying D3 or 1Ds Mk3 for $$$$.00
As much as broadcast likes workflow, they will have to change it fast. (fast = 5 years)
Most material from the field will be coming on RAW formats. 3X RGB sensor will be gone for good from broadcast cameras and if you want it or not the S35 or full frame format will move in. There is not enough surface on 2/3 for all this good quality HD resolution anymore.
Also lenses can take only this much of MTF on such small surface before screwing all up.
Hey! CNN moved in with HD now, I thought it will never happen! I took them 10 years or so. And remember progress of technology is exponential. I took 10 years for most programs to move to HD (HD at 10-15Mbits/sec stream and 2/3 sensors) but the next upgrade (100Mbits/sec stream and S35) will be faster than anybody expects.

I am still waiting for ET to switch to HD, I am surprised that they didn’t do it first.
I guess dirt digging is not worth much, like tabloids, are mostly printed on the recycled toilet paper.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Hi Joofa,
It's also a great way to hide the grain in Super 16 cinematography.
I would add even putting a putting a slash or pool of hot light behind
considerably underexposed actors works a treat.
Mezmo

Mezmo,

Thanks for your input. I agree with putting the pool of light idea. I am glad that people are using these little tricks.

 

[Dj Joofa]

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.

This is a significant point. It happens many times that a small company with dedicated team like Red's is able to take on giants because the giants are too busy in the "maintenance" mode. Red is a small company with no obligation right now (heck, even RMA's might not have started happening), hence, they can move very swiftly. The bigger boys have connections for arm twisting many times under certain channels, especially if resellers are involved. It goes to Red's advantage that they are selling directly, and hence, can relieve that pressure.

 

[laguun]

This is in short term, if we are talking long term the broadcast industry just in US is using more equipment/cameras then the whole world cinema together.

exactly my point.
to become an mayor player for broadcast, red would need to add:
- a worldwide service, sales and support network. with spares, with employees speaking the language etc.
- manuals in all these languages
- all the necessary national quality assurances (ce for europe)
- have an delivery format (as tape or disk) which plays back in realtime of faster in existing broadcast infrastructures.
just to name a few. all that would costs lots of money, lots of time, takes away the focus of red on one product and reduces the price advantage a lean and mean operation has against a 500 pound gorilla. I don´t say its impossible, and i would never underestimate mr. jannards vision as entrepreneur... but this certainly would be a quite different red than the company we know.

“In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video”
I have seen this argument 5 years ago with DLSR, “in few years cell phones will have 5MP cameras build in” and what? They do, yet we are buying D3 or 1Ds Mk3 for $$$$.00

The difference is - mobile phones aim at different things (compact, cheap, light, long run time, fancy design) than DSLRS (quality, studio ergonomics).

reds and nikons cameras aim at the same, difference is the framerate. so the overlaping of these markets are no convergence (as in mobile/dslr) but competition (as in moving images high end digital cameras/still images high end cameras).

Most material from the field will be coming on RAW formats.

Certainly not.
All delivery systems use RGB, YUV or XYZ, none raw.
Raw is well suited for high end production, but not for broadcasts and transmission.

3X RGB sensor will be gone for good from broadcast cameras and if you want it or not the S35 or full frame format will move in.

No. Higher DOF isn´t wanted for most EFP/ENG productions. You don´t want to focus the nightshot of the politican rushing out of his car alone on 35mm with a 400mm zoom on your own in the wind.

There is not enough surface on 2/3 for all this good quality HD resolution anymore.

Last time i checked our HD zooms from angenieux delivered stunning good images. And the 8K fujinon on the UHDTV NHK demonstration i had the joy of seeing in 2006 looked pretty cool (ok, it had some CA )

Also lenses can take only this much of MTF on such small surface before screwing all up.

correct, but broadcast in US and EU will stay at 1080 for quite some time, and thats easy on 2/3.

I took 10 years for most programs to move to HD (HD at 10-15Mbits/sec stream and 2/3 sensors) but the next upgrade (100Mbits/sec stream and S35) will be faster than anybody expects.

I don´t think you will see ENG in S35 getting popular anytime soon.
In fact, the newer systems all use 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 and have market shares of >99%.

S35 if for drama, commercials, series - but rarely the right choice for a typical broadcast one-man team.

 

[Obin Olson]

FYI Jim, I would be happy as hell if you just fixed the few remain bugs and gave us outputs on all ports and a raw preview not rec709...but this is just me....really this camera is amazing...

btw you may want to look at your red drive cables..mine failed on day 2...not a big deal but they should take a beating imho...

 

[Jannard]

FYI Jim, I would be happy as hell if you just fixed the few remain bugs and gave us outputs on all ports and a raw preview not rec709...but this is just me....really this camera is amazing...

btw you may want to look at your red drive cables..mine failed on day 2...not a big deal but they should take a beating imho...

Define RAW output...

Jim

 

[Warren Kommers]

Define RAW output...

Jim

Just without the REC 709 gamma in preview. It's waaaay more contrast than I will time in post and makes it difficult to light from. What am I seeing in the shadows? The viper has a raw mode to toggle to. The picture usually looks like shit(flat,noisey) but I can see where my shadow detail ends without taking it to REDCINE.

The preview is really only good for framing right now. Which is fine you just have to base your lighting off of experience with the camera rather than being able to see it real time on set. Like film. However film is generous with it's dynamic range and gives us a margin of error. With digital as it is now you've really got to balance things very carefully with lighting and exposure.

Some people have also suggested to be able to load your own LUT into preview which would also be great. I'm not sure if that is posssible but it gives everyone(production designer, makeup, wardrobe) an idea of what there work might be seen as in the finished product.

 

[Scott Webster]

FWIW we have had a lot of interest in the 'Look' ability of the camera. That is the ability to create 'Look presets' in RedCine and load the camera with the preset for on set monitoring.

Love to see that feature in Build 15...

 

[Jannard]

FWIW we have had a lot of interest in the 'Look' ability of the camera. That is the ability to create 'Look presets' in RedCine and load the camera with the preset for on set monitoring.

Love to see that feature in Build 15...

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

 

[Warren Kommers]

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

Bad ass! I guess that also takes a REDCINE version that can export that information.

I'm really excited about these new builds Jim. Plus my own camera finally!!!! I'm going to shoot the shit out of it.

 

[ChrisLyon]

Mmm. Tasty.

I was just talking to a friend of mine about live color presets in the field. Cloverfield had a system but it wasn't in-camera... it was through a MacBook Pro and some software out to a monitor on set. It sounded pretty cool but if Red can do that in-cam....

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

If i remember well REDCINE was introduced sometimes in Fall 2007.

Driven by the industry logic thaat means sometime in Fall 2008 you

COULD get about 95% to 99% features enabled.

100% only in the case if we are all so lucky group of camera techies.

So take it easy.

Nor rush.

Also would be good not to get in any sort of wrong expectation all the time.

To have understanding of development time is almost a crucial.

 

[Evin Grant]

Evin - would love a Stouffer shot if you can! (at various ISOs)

Graeme

I have a Cam-Align and a MacBeth, can a reliable Stouffer be made from an inkjet printer?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Nope, got to buy one. It's a backlit chart - only way to get more than about 5 stops DR on a chart.

Graeme

 

[conrad gaunt]

My guess is there's going to be some intelligent noise reduction built in either on camera or in REDCINE... perhaps both. Maybe it'll target the blue channel... or copy info from parts of another channel to increase blue channel density.

These guys are starting to squeeze the sensor for what it's worth. The next question is when does the next sensor come out?

Im with you on that. I really hope the blue channel does improve. The higher quality record modes should aim in that direction in my opinion.

 

[zak forrest]

the LOOK feature is what the SD card is for right? What else could the SD be used for besides that and software upgrades? I haven't used it at all yet.

 

[Curran Giddens]

the LOOK feature is what the SD card is for right? What else could the SD be used for besides that and software upgrades? I haven't used it at all yet.

there was talk about a wireless card for remote control of camera functions.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Coming but not Build 15.

Jim

Okay, so that is a feature that's been promised for a long time. I thought Build 15 was 'feature complete'. What build now are you aiming for?

Not trying to bust, just seeking clarification, because I have a client who has had three conversations with me about this exact feature. I told him it was in Build 15 since Build 15 was supposed to be feature complete, so now I'd like to know what to tell him.

 

[Evin Grant]

Nope, got to buy one. It's a backlit chart - only way to get more than about 5 stops DR on a chart.

Graeme

I'd be glad to hop down to you behind the Orange curtain when next you're in town.

 

[Jannard]

Okay, so that is a feature that's been promised for a long time. I thought Build 15 was 'feature complete'. What build now are you aiming for?

Not trying to bust, just seeking clarification, because I have a client who has had three conversations with me about this exact feature. I told him it was in Build 15 since Build 15 was supposed to be feature complete, so now I'd like to know what to tell him.

Probably in the build after 15. Feature complete? We will never be feature complete...

Jim