Build 15 & 16 news...

[Joel Kaye]

I think still prime lenses will work fairly well if set up right with gears.
3. A full set of ND's/Matte Box and follow focus.

Ya know I'm just teasing ya Finner. Good advice.

We were able to pull some pretty good focus off the RED LCD this weekend on a 60mm macro (a bitch to focus beyond 2 feet) lens. Playback in 1080P on a 1080P plasma confirmed we were good for Blu-Ray. And it looked as sharp as any Blu-Ray you're like;y to see. And we weren't even getting serious yet.

I'm more concerned about focal lengths where the differences in focus are very subtle at 8-15 feet. That'll probably be tough to see.

Hey, I'll have my tape measure, my range finder, my DOF charts and everything else around to help... but I still want my camera helping too.

OH - BTW... the EX1 has a DOF range graph built into the display. That's another nice digital trick that's very helpful. RED could add that when it enables data transfer with their lenses.

i'm confident operating and pulling focus on a certain amount of shots. but you're just kidding yourself if you think you can pull focus all by yourself on a complicated camera move with shallow depth of field. even if you had this elaborate focus assist which showed every pixel you'll need another person to pay attention to this laborious job.

Yeah - I'd say that's accurate.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Well, that's why I think staying at 320 is probably the right course. Changing the ISO is more of a "preview" of what your post-processed footage might look like, but it's not changing what you're recording in the here and now.

Which begs the question - is 320 really correct? Or did they build in some headroom so 200 might be better in low contrast situations. Maybe 400 is better outdoors. In the end, I'll figure it out... but it still would be nice to know what's really clipping so I can keep pushing the exposure to the right.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I've tried setting ASA at much lower rating (200 and below) in low contrast (smoggy) situations, watching the right side of the histogram, and found myself exposing at apertures providing much much better results.
The clip also opens in Redcine at an ASA that provides more highlight detail.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's not "crap" its simply how its done in the big leagues. Viper, genesis, d20, F23 all don't have the gimmicky focus devices that come on the prosumer, barely "pro" camera's. If you made a it to a major league baseball team you probably would not want to show up with your little league glove. The red camera is a big step up and as silly as some people may think a tape measure is it is by FAR the best tool for focusing and an industry standard for a reason. Those that are fighting against it tend to show a lack of experience. Learn to step up the ladder to a higher level or buy a prosumer camera with the gimmicky crap and stay at that level.

You know Finner, I cannot shake the feeling that you are talking down to a lot of people here. I for one use ACs, and they pull focus. But you know what pal, I also shoot on my own.. Know why? Cause I'd like to think I'm one of those things you call... What's that name? Oh yeah, an artist. I like to shoot for shooting's sake, not because I get off on a camera crew.

One more small point, I know someone else that shoots alone, and I'll bet he almost never uses an AC either... Jim Jannard, you wanna tell him to "step up the ladder?" Dude, he BUILT the ladder.

RED's focus assist is good, but it can be better. I'll go with your arguement of "use a tape" IF RED had not developed a digital focus assist. But they did, and don't you remember all the "You're not going to believe Graeme's magic focus assist!" - Hype.. Well we've seen it, and it's ok, but RED did not do it the best.. Jim has always struck us as being the guy who would never settle for 2nd best. Hard fact: RED's focus is 2nd best. So the next step is obvious....

This is not a dig at RED, everyone swings the bat, sometimes it's a homer, and sometimes, in the dugout.. What matters if RED has more homers than fouls. This one was not a homer, so they need another swing at it, that's all.

I used the focus assist twice, it was not easy enough or helpful enough, so I turned it off and never went back. Even though I needed it.. This is a bad sign.

See you at NAB my friend

Jay

 

[Dj Joofa]

Back to the exposure problem:

RED (and especially Jim) told us many times that the proper way to work with the RED ONE is to expose to the right but not to clip.

Big Lebowski, this "exposing to the right" phenomenon is open to interpretation. I am not privy to how Red is internally implemented but here is a scenario which I think is a little funny. BTW, I do not have a Red in front of me, so I am just theorizing out of the blue/thin air.

We put the ISO rating on Red to 100. The LCD image darkens. However, the actual signal as output by sensor is not reduced correspondingly. It is still relatively higher corresponding to ISO 320. We start increasing aperture size and/or increasing exposure time. The LCD image lightens up. However, depending upon the lighting situation, we may reach a stage where the brightest spot on the lcd is still gray (and not brightly white), but the correspondingly larger signal on the sensor output has reached its clipping point. The fact that the (Rec 709) display clipping point is 0.4 EV less than max, can only exacerbate the situation here, as that will clip the signal on the (Rec 709) display earlier, than it should.

So now we are in a situation where just looking at the LCD screen, which is not fully bright, you feel that there is room to go as the brightest spot is still gray and not brightly-lit white, but any increase in aperture size and/or exposure time is not making it any brighter; instead more and more LCD image pixel values are saturating at gray levels.

In earlier threads we have seen cases where the LCD image looked clearly clipped but the sensor had some leeway built into by some headroom provided by 0.4 EV. However, in this case the LCD may not look fully exposed, but it is still clipping at gray levels.

 

[Finner]

You know Finner, I cannot shake the feeling that you are talking down to a lot of people here.

Not my intention, honestly sorry if it came across that way.

Jim Jannard, you wanna tell him to "step up the ladder?" Dude, he BUILT the ladder.

I thought he built like sunglasses and cameras and stuff.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I thought he built like sunglasses and cameras and stuff.

Ouch! That was cold.

Jay

 

[Brook Willard]

Easy, kids... there's a respectful way to have this discussion that won't rub people the wrong way.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Uhhhh Brook, Finner was being cute.. And so was I... Perhaps we just missed!



Jay

 

[Poi Boy]

Easy, kids... there's a respectful way to have this discussion that won't rub people the wrong way.

keep in mind that Finner is an acquired taste.
Aloha
-A

 

[Morning Glory]

mmmmmm, finner!

 

[Poi Boy]

that is way funny Garth !

lol

Aloha
-A

 

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, don't worry, we all know Daren quite well by now.

Clearly I missed the subtlety altogether. Nothing to see here... move along...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Me, GibCor, and an alliance company own a total of six RED cameras, with two more to be delivered shortly. We’ve been shooting with them for over six months now, in a wide variety of styles: cine-style, EFP style, and hybrid cine/EFP style. We’ve shot extensively with 35mm cine primes and zooms, some 35mm still lenses, and B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zooms. We’ve shot extensive aerials (helicopter and fixed wing), extensive underwater, with cranes, jibs, stabilization units, and a broad range of tripod and hand held terrestrial footage. Projects have included features, television programs, commercials, high-end business media, stock footage, and many more. As you might guess, our kit setups have ranged from bare bones mobile 1-person setups, to max-accessorized gigantic rigs.

So, what have we learned about RED ONE in all this? A few thoughts:

The camera essentially becomes what you accessorize it to become, whether that be cine style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style.

The camera can be effectively used in a large crew cine or EFP environment, or quite easily used by a single operator.

The biggest challenge for most RED ONE users is for them to develop broad enough skill sets, and open-minded attitudes, to effectively match what the camera itself is capable of being used for.

There are very few “right” ways or “wrong” ways to use the camera, though many biased or elitist individuals protecting their turf will try to claim there are.

Used correctly, the camera generates excellent images – which is the bottom line, and what we’re all after.

Users of the camera come from a broad range of backgrounds; film, television, video, still photography – thus attitudes, experience, biases, and prejudices will vary.

The camera’s technology is most closely related to a DSLR, moderately related to a TV/video camera, and only remotely related to a film camera.

An all-manual workflow has its limitations, thus the electronics incorporated in RED ONE are there to be used to modify the workflow when needed or wanted.

Imaging professionals do use the right tool for the job, and sometimes that tool involves some auto features. DSLR pros regularly use autofocus when a job calls for it. TV/video pros regularly use some auto features when necessary (iris, etc.). They are no less “pros” than all manual film professionals.

Focusing 4k with RED ONE can be done effectively by traditional methods, using measuring tapes, focus pullers, scales, etc, or alternately by sight focusing using the EVF, LCD, 2x image magnification, and the other focus tools. Real “pros” match their focusing methods to the demands of the task at hand. 1:1 would be nice, but the camera can be focused just fine with the tools it presently has.

In competent hands, the exposure can be set accurately with the camera using traditional methods (hand meter, etc.) or by using the camera’s electronics (zebra, etc.). If someone isn’t competent, they can blow exposure on the camera, but there really isn’t any “rocket science” involved with exposing RED RAW efficiently. Practice makes perfect.

RAW is different than shooting RGB. DSLR pros coming to RED have a jump on that. TV/video pros used to shooting RGB have a moderate learning curve in approaching RED ONE. Film types, who haven’t traditionally used (or trusted) electronics on a camera, will tend to stay with the safe (read “manual) procedures. They’ll be real familiar with cine lens use on RED ONE, but generally unfamiliar and/or untrusting of the electronic features.

-------------------------------------------

END NOTES:

There are very few right ways or wrong ways to use RED ONE. If you’re getting well exposed and well focused images from the camera you’re using it the “right” way, if not, you’re using it the “wrong” way. Beyond the large crew cine-style productions GibCor has done or been a part of, I have personally shot petabytes of RED ONE footage over a six month period all by myself, with absolutely no assistant, sight focusing the camera by myself using the EVF or LCD, plus RED’s existing focusing tools, and quickly exposing the images using zebra or with more time also using the histogram. I respect both the traditional manual workflow (and use it at times), and also respect the more progressive “use the camera’s electronics, small crew or single operator” workflow. GibCor matches the best and most effective lenses, accessories, and workflow procedures to each project, and keeps a continually open mind for modifications of our workflows and equipment.

I think its time for everyone here to cease the “my way is right” rhetoric, realize that RED ONE users can come from multiple professional imaging backgrounds, and rather than waste energy protecting our little fiefdoms or turf, exchange creative ideas for using RED ONE. GibCor and our associates are not strictly cine-style, EFP style, or hybrid cine/EFP style in our approach – we’re all those. We pick the most appropriate style and equipment for our RED ONE cameras for each individual project.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Wow, Steve, great post.
100% agree.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Ditto, Steve.

 

[Kenn Christenson]

Still - like to see 1:1 focusing. Would it be that difficult, given everything else Red's accomplished? Maybe shave a little off the time devoted to Scarlet? :wink:

 

[Andrew M.]

Gibby, what are you guys using for post?
SCRATCH?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, what are you guys using for post?
SCRATCH?

We use either FCP or SCRATCH depending on the specific needs of each project. Horses for courses...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Elcurado and Redsky

Thank you for the kind words...

We're all important members of the worldwide RED family of users. I think we need to behave like a functional family, not a dysfunctional one. Respect is a two way street. Everyone here should give respect - and receive respect.

Ciao...