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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Bug...

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Joofa said:
Products do get delayed so it is no surprise and I feel sorry for Red. But what is striking to me is that Red is no longer a new company (4-5 years; companies get formed, deliver, and get sold in this time frame), so there is no excuse in saying that we (Red) are not sure what we are doing. And, Red has been repeatedly informed by many that their time frames are too aggressive. However, contrary to the assertions by Red, Red is not quite receptive to technical critique of its products, timelines, and suggestions.

And, Peter, claiming that Canon was delayed for a year is no excuse either. Canon has delivered a number of products. Trust me, this 4-5 years span of Red is a huge amount of time for a technology startup company; with only a few delivered major products that includes the Red One camera.

It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa
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This level of hubris is amazing... and disappointing.

Joofa, got a resume to forward?

-sc
 
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Joofa said:
Moreover, I looked at Red's specs (major ones) and thought could my colleagues and I would have done it in 5 years and the answer was probably yes. So I don't think that I am going over the top and way out of line.
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This reminds me of all those "lightbulb" jokes out there. Perhaps it's time for a new one.

Q. How many Digital Cinema camera companies does it take to change a light bulb?

A. ......
 
Steven Caesare said:
This level of hubris is amazing... and disappointing.

Joofa, got a resume to froward?

-sc
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Stop feeding the trolls dammit!

Anyone claiming that they can do better than Red or any other high end company with proven, quality products should be immediately ignored until there is tangible evidence for it.

My $0.02

/N
 
James Brundige said:
Most of us realize that, which is why I've got about $30K of Red products and a deposit on a camera that's not even made yet. That's a real vote of confidence.

Please take care of yourself along the way.
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+1

A lot of us do realize the complexity. I've worked on projects with customized chips and firmware... Nothing as grand as Epic for sure. My last such project was a custom control board for a steam humidification system and there were a total of 9 of us on the project. The Epic seems like that times 5 million!

I'm waiting patiently, you have my Stage-2 deposits in good faith and the rest will be ready when the cameras are. I know you guys are working as fast as you can and when the cameras do arrive, they will be amazing. And I hope you don't stop! The larger format brains announced are still very interesting to me, I dream about an Epic 645 on a daily basis.
 
I normally don’t get into these conversations because, to me, it’s a waste of time.

But the only reason I am butting in is because I am on the fence seeing both sides of the field.

When Jim announced there are more delays…I got frustrated…more delays…more work…more time required…yadee yadee yada

I am waiting patiently for the Scarlet…and the fact that I have no time frame for its release caused me more headaches because, unlike some of you, I am not a millionaire (yet), I can not afford to buy a few cameras…and I want the BEST to shoot…

Then you see what Jim is trying to do…the amount of effort, him and the Red team, are putting towards making something that for many seems impossible…the ambitions they have…and you get the picture…

Just go buy an HD Videomaker magazine and see how many companies BRAG about the features their cameras have...for the price they charge…I bet you anything you’ll be yawning (like Jim and the Red team probably)…because the Scarlet and Epic already have all of them…and beyond…for not even half the price…

So…from me to you all at Red…time to get positive again…

Good luck…we are waiting patiently…

R.g.
Out
 
Jannard said:
Time for my blood pressure meds... ugh.

I have to wonder if you really realize how difficult this project is.

Jim
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I don't think people really have a grasp on how quickly higher engineering projects get more complicated as you increase speed, reduce size and reduce power. People tend to think linearly, yet these things have so many exponential components to the complexity, things skyrocket.

I've worked in chip design for 15 years. I can tell you without question that the most aggressive projects I have been on have almost certainly taken the longest. Mainly because the company designing the chips has no control over the foundry that makes them. While I am using chips as an example, this could be true of any part of a design, as pertaining to an entire camera system, because almost ALL companies have to subcontract out to someone who can make the parts not only better, but cheaper for the end consumer.

As a manufacturer your only option is to try and examine a partner as much as possible. If you have EVER seem what Intel puts a partner through before they use them, it is AMAZING. My father worked for a company that made robots used in chip packaging. The company could not pass the stringent requirements of Intel, but could with AMD, so AMD bought their products. The problem with this approach is only that it takes time. How do you check out every aspect of a partner before you use them? It's difficult, especially when companies you are trying to contract with aren't going to show you every detail that you might want to know, they are trying to impress you with their capabilities.

But pertaining to complexity and performance, all manufacturing processes have variance in them. When you push speed, those variances become more critical, as their magnitude threatens to cause functional problems and requires you to design to tighter requirements. Designing to tighter requirements in almost ALL chip design requires more power and more area. Both of which are not desirable in a camera design. So you are constantly fighting not one war, but three. Now let's add to this heat, as temperature very negatively affects chip designs as well, makes them run slower and induces noise. With smaller area and higher drive strengths in design, you generate more heat due to the power increase as well.

And this is just a simplistic description of high speed design. Not even taking into account that the foundry that makes the chips is not always the same as the cell library providers that characterize their logic based on what the foundry tells them. In other words, at every level of design their is the possibility of error, and that error compounds, and those errors are something that engineers designing the chips CANNOT account for. They can only work with the data the foundry provides them.

If the foundry makes a mistake and it takes you 3 months to get a wafer back through the fab, there is NOTHING you can do.

I'll be honest, it is a gut wrenching feeling for me to know that the camera I want to shoot with is further away now. I am sure that same feeling was felt by ALL those at RED as well. But I certainly understand and I'm thankful of the honesty in letting us know what is happening.
 
I Bloom said:
Made in the USA is a huge selling point for me. (As long as we aren't talking about cars.)
If it remains the case, I hope that you advertise that fact a bit more.

IBloom
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Me too. I hope it is not just for the short term.

I understand that meeting the prosumerish price point of scarlet may require offshore manufacturing to compete with the other players, but it seems to me the lower volume and much higher price point would allow the Epic line to be manufactured here without too much of a price penalty - and possibiy it will help in both shorter turnaround times and better quality in machined parts.

But most of all I would like to see RED help maintain and build American manufacturing capability since I believe it is an essential national capability. I'm sure I will be proud to carry an Epic no matter what, but I will be particularly proud if I can turn it over at the customs line and point at the "Made in USA" sticker.
 
Open Dialog

Open Dialog

Jannard said:
The only difference between us and the rest of the industry is that we are talking along the way. If we kept silent about the process and our targets, we would be just like the others. I now can understand why they do it like they do. But I still prefer to keep an open dialog.

Jim
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I've kept up with Red from the first announcement of the Red ONE to now, I really appreciate the fact that you take the time, as the owner of Red, to post updates on the project status. While for most people, they want to have ad campaigns tell/sell them why they should think something is revolutionary (like the huge and expensive Alexa has to do) and I can see why it can be frustrating to them to not have those kind of announcements. But instead I appreciate that you chose to actually treat us to the artistic and technical process of making a game-changing camera and camera company too. And to be honest you guys seem more like a candid and open Apple or Pixar with the incredible creative mix of staff to prove it.

And while I would really like to get my hands on an Epic sooner rather than later, I really appreciate your candid post on the subject and I wanted to say thanks for sticking to your guns to make a great camera for us - and for sparing us from the typical awkward live product announcements followed by glossy ad campaigns (cough, Sony, cough).

Jon


P.s.
When you guys get your life back after Epic / Scarlett ships, would you be willing to film a behind the scenes at Red or at least let us meet some of your team? Just a thought.
 
Joofa said:
It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa
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I am sorry but, despite your somber and objective tone, this is just an insult to RED and everyone here. It doesn't get much more serious than this - they are busting their butts late at night and on weekends to give YOU and the rest of us the best cinema tools ever. It is embarrassing to see someone write what you wrote. :frown2:
 
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The old saying that life is what happens as you are making plans is so true, particularly in R&D and manufacturing. For those of us who have shot on a Red camera we know how magical it can be. I am more than willing to wait as long as it takes to get my hands on a Scarlet. There are other tools I own and use that work for now, technology changes quickly today, I just know that when I do have a Scarlet it will be all Jim says it will be and then some. That's good enough for me.
 
Craig Meadows said:
The old saying that life is what happens as you are making plans is so true, particularly in R&D and manufacturing. For those of us who have shot on a Red camera we know how magical it can be. I am more than willing to wait as long as it takes to get my hands on a Scarlet. There are other tools I own and use that work for now, technology changes quickly today, I just know that when I do have a Scarlet it will be all Jim says it will be and then some. That's good enough for me.
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Hear, hear, Craig! I concur. And I can be really, really patient, too.
 
This is probably a bad idea.. Like trying to drink from a waterfall but... anyway:

What is the nature of the bug? There are a lot of very technical people following this forum, and they have friends, and they have friends. If you ask a specific question, maybe you get a specific answer.
 
Jannard said:
Time for my blood pressure meds... ugh.

I have to wonder if you really realize how difficult this project is.

Jim
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Even with minor well-known technology like chat clients and websites, people don't really know how difficult it can be. "Just make it look like that and do this, what's the big gazint?"

Sometimes, even the guy setting out to do it doesn't truly know how difficult it is, and that's probably a blessing. How awesome it is to be so far in the weeds that the only honorable course is to keep pushing forward! Only the best of us create those situations, and only the few make it all the way.

Go, man go!

Personally, I have decided I'm no longer in the market for a 2/3 Scarlet. You can put my name on an Epic, that's for damn sure.

Chris
 
Yeah I have to say the day that RED employs a spokesperson other than Ted (Who is essentially a professional fanboy =) ) is the day I walk. Its refreshing to hear it from the guy who has the most to lose in all of this. Its hows a level of transparency and respect for us that a lot of companies could learn from.
 
Jannard said:
JRED is about 4 years old. That is extremely young when you consider the industry. We have put out one (1) product... the RED ONE. What we are attempting to do, 5K at 120fps in a box the size of a 1Ds plus some thickness, is next to impossible. At least compared to what the rest of the industry is trying to do. That we would have issues... not what we had hoped but certainly not a surprise. The real surprise is that we are even trying to do it. If we all were standing around waiting for the "others" to do it... how long do you think we would be waiting?

Just because it is impossible doesn't mean it can't be done. Just give us a second...

Jim
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Effin' RIGHT. Keep kickin' ass! As the "director" of project RED, you have a duty to make it exactly what YOU feel it should ultimately be. This product is representative of you, and currently a part of the legacy you'll leave behind...and in the end, its success and/or failure rides on your shoulder. Those of us who have been on this board for any length of time know who you are at this point. You've got all the resources, finances and time to sort through virtually anything. And most importantly, you have a HUGE community of FRIENDS pulling for you AND the right intentions and drive to pull it off.

I don't even know you, but if you needed something and I could help, I would be there in a heartbeat. In so many ways, it seems my gen-X peers have abandoned decency, ethics, professional responsibility...and even just plain common courtesy. Greed is rampant, and at times I really wonder what kind of world we are creating for future generations, so to see someone such as yourself operating outside that modality can be shocking. Especially here in southern California. :)

You are a serious role model, on so many levels. Due to your dream, and the tenacity you have upheld in chasing the ephemera, it appears the rest of us are actually going to lay hands on filmmaking's Grail.

Please stay healthy, dude.

"'Success' will have many fathers, but 'failure' will always be a bastard."
 
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