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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Blackmagic URSA 12K - Now $5,995!

Zack Birlew

Zack Birlew

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Well, after thinking about it, this certainly throws any new camera plans for my next movie out the window. At this point, with this price drop, I can’t even consider a used DSMC1 (which was already lower on the list), the Komodo, Zcam F8, Sony Alpha 1, Fuji GFX 100s, and a nice used Helium 8K are all out the window now too.

What is strange is that the URSA 4.6K G2 is still the same price? I wonder if Blackmagic Design might be doing a “select market” approach and keep one camera for this audience and the other camera for another audience and so on and so on but at similar price points. Not sure I’m for that idea but unless the rest of their line is going to adjust by NAB time, I’m not sure what to make of the price drop business-wise unless there’s further developments or clarification.

Still, even though I don’t need a new camera right this second, I now have a very compelling and budget friendly “A” camera choice to consider for the future. Even so, NAB is just around the corner so who knows what’s coming and I know camera choice is dependent on several factors, including size which is still a factor for going with one of the other camera considerations listed.

The most exciting aspect is the future, like the RED One for $17,500 in the time of $100,000 HD systems, what will this do to the industry? I can tell that a future URSA 12K G2 will need to have certain upgrades like a mirrorless mount system and the usual EVF/LCD upgrades and maybe even more frame rate options if we’re being generous and full frame would probably be a whole new camera but having mirrorless opens up for speed boosters so it won’t be too bad. The game for competing 8K cameras will have to be defined by picture quality and probably full frame and even medium format sensors and, of course, price but, most importantly, stability and support. I’ve heard bad things about Blackmagic’s support before but it sounds like they’re getting much better at that and that’s going to be the sticking point for any camera purchase moving forward in my book. Until then, it’s clear that NAB 2021 and 2022 are surely going to be exciting!
 
Levi Arnold said:
Most likely because they can't move them. 12K sounds great until your computer chokes up trying to play it back and you'r'e using terabytes of data. Oh and you can't do ProRes, just BRaw.
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That is wrong. Download the 12K files and try them. On an M1 MacBook they playback at fullres/full-debayer on a 4K timeline…. 6k *9:1* r3d can’t be more than 1/2 res/1/2 debayer on the same computer. (And 6k *is less than* 1/4 the resolution, since the BUMP12k has a taller aspect ratio).

And even file size argument is wrong because of how awesome their variable bitrate Q modes are, and how well BRAW holds up when compressed super high. And that’s before taking into account that it can do non-crop/full-sensor at 12k, 8k, or 4k…

They’ve likely reduced the price to make way for an upcoming camera and/or to have some kind of mid-lifecycle announcement.
 
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Levi Arnold said:
Most likely because they can't move them. 12K sounds great until your computer chokes up trying to play it back and you'r'e using terabytes of data. Oh and you can't do ProRes, just BRaw.
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Spoken like someone who's never actually tried it.

I have a 2017 Macbook. Plays and grades the 12K no problem. Can't play DXL2 shots faster than about 2 FPS.

I shoot 12K Q3 (medium compression) a lot and it's about 1TB per hour.

JB
 
John Brawley said:
Can't play DXL2 shots faster than about 2 FPS.
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Bare in mind since around the Nvidia 1080 GPUs realtime 8K has been possible hardware-wise for 8K 5:1 REDCODE RAW. Macbooks have caught up since then due to better hardware support. Just took time, which is part of the circle of strife as technology advances in our industry.

I have 3 generations of notebooks that handle it well in terms of playback, my bigger workstations no issues obviously. The big boost has been GPU Decode support for RAW footage which was properly released in 2018.

There's a few other thoughts I have about using state of the art digital cinema cameras and not tackling processing or working with that footage with state of the art computational hardware, but I'll save that discussion for another day.

I'll also emphasize through Resolve, Adobe, and pretty much anything - if you do have underpowered hardware you can go to 1/4 or 1/2 debayer or lower to drive realtime playback for speedy editing.

BRAW 12K doesn't bog any of my systems down either mainly due to how the codec was designed. But you do need GPUs with decent quantities of RAM. That hasn't changed much. Pretty much has been the constant theme as we've risen up in resolution and frame handling.
 
Levi Arnold said:
snip: Most likely because they can't move them.
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It's more likely that they have amortized the cost of the sensor already.

Unlike RED's recent cameras where the body of the camera is minimal in size and costs because there isn't much to it - the body of the cinema cameras from Blackmagic, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, etc. are a major part of the expense - with flip screens, numerous buttons, I/O jacks, filter wheels, knobs and the mechanics for the filter wheels, attachment points, etc. - not to mention the much greater labor to put that all together.

The body of 12K is exactly the same as the URSA Broadcast ($3495 at introduction a couple years ago) and the other URSAs so most of that cost is the same and the body engineering, tooling, materials acquisition, etc has been amortized over several years, so the only real cost difference is the sensor and whatever software and minor internal engineering changes that were necessary. Sensors are expensive - but not that expensive - it's still an S35 sensor with a little different array and density but very high pixel density on these larger sensors doesn't really seem that difficult for fabs given the high pixel counts on extremely small sensors in phones, action cams, etc. - so no reason the pricing can't be close to that of the other URSAs once development costs were covered by the early adopters.

One thing that has become apparent about Grant and BMD's philosophy over quite a few years now is that they try to give you the most they can for as little $ as they can - pretty much throughout the entire product line.
 
An URSA 12K at $5995 is certainly a lot more interesting now. I haven't used a BlackMagic cameras personally but also haven't ever haerd lots of rave reviews about the images they output. I have absloutley no need for 12K but would consider them if the images they made were as good as or close to Red/Arri/Sony
 
There were some Blackmagic URSA 12K test video's and images posted towards the end of this thread - http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?182500-Blackmagic-Camera-Update-July-2020

Beyond that and some other Youtube video reviews pointing out the moire issues, I don't recall seeing or hearing that much about the camera. Seems to have been lost in the steady stream of prior and subsequent camera releases.

From what I did see of it, it definitely did seem to be it's own thing image-quality wise.

I think the recent price reduction should make the URSA 12K an even more viable digital cinema camera alternative or choice than it already was.

Imo it's still just as much about investing your time into learning how to make the most out of the different camera's capture and post workflows/ecosystems than it is about the cost of the camera.

And even more than that, once you're capturing images at a certain level of quality, it's all about what you put in front of any of these cameras.

So, yeah, good on BM for passing on those cost-savings, hopefully it'll help more people make better content.
 
Levi Arnold said:
Most likely because they can't move them. 12K sounds great until your computer chokes up trying to play it back and you'r'e using terabytes of data. Oh and you can't do ProRes, just BRaw.
Click to expand...
Actually, the BMD 12K camera can record in 8K or 6K or 4K, if that's what you want. You don't have to record 12K and use 12K files. I think 6K would make more sense, plus the math is easier for an on-the-fly downrez.

The BMD cameras are not nearly as sensitive or have the same colorimetry or sensitivity as Red cameras, but for 1/8th the price, it's a real bargain. If I were Canon, I'd be very worried.
 
Marc Wielage said:
Actually, the BMD 12K camera can record in 8K or 6K or 4K, if that's what you want. You don't have to record 12K and use 12K files. I think 6K would make more sense, plus the math is easier for an on-the-fly downrez.
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Marc it's only multiples of 4K that work with in-camera scaling of the sensor if you don't want a crop / window.

So 12K / 8K / 4K that are full sensor with no crop. 6K is possible, but it's a super 16 sized crop of the sensor.

JB
 
The overall Ursa Mini form factor remains similar across all models. There have been significant differences between the models in the design of the casework as features have been added.

Between the Ursa Mini 4.6K and Ursa Mini Pro, you cannot simply swap parts out to rebuild a physically damaged camera except between identical models. I tried and had to modify the main frame of an Ursa Mini Pro case to repair an older fractured Ursa Mini 4.6K. The Ursa Mini Pro 12K uses a different SSD drive add-on via USB3 versus the HD-SDI outputs of the Mini Pro so I expect there may have been further revisions of the casework. Whilst retaining the similar form factor, design change still costs.
 
Andrew Dease.

Things have evolved since but a look at the Aussie feature "Paper Planes" might be worthwhile. I understand that it was shot with RED (Epic), Arri Alexa and Blackmagic 4K ( pre-URSA same global shutter sensor ). Try to pick the differences. The "look" as such may be dependent on the production value-adding during the shoot as well as post-production work. I can't vouch for the ARRI Alexa having been used but I did see the Blackmagic 4K camera and the Red Epic at work. It was also the swansong for my old primary school as it was demolished about 2 years later. For someone like me who has not used a digital cinema camera with strong low-light performance, the Blackmagic for me is not significantly different to a film camera as far as the need for light goes. Dynamic range of course is another matter.
 
Caveat- I have not graded any recent (last 2 years) BlackMagic material. When I have, the most prominent weakness was poor colorimetry in mixed lighting. IMO, RED's color science is more refined and accurate. To be fair, there were color tracking issues in RED's early iterations as well. Fortunately, RED has Graeme Nattress, who has proven adept at continually tweaking the formula to where it is today.

FWIW: Bayer pattern CMOS tech requires a sophisticated algorithm to get good color. BMD's new take on color masking includes clear photo sites, which I expect will become more common. Sensor designers want both better sensitivity and more accurate color, which, at least in theory, more sophisticated masking patterns could provide. To actually yield those potential benefits, the algorithms need to effectively utilize these data sets to construct an accurate image. Unless you have a magic wand, that's going to take a minute or two.

Cheers - #19
 
Andrew Dease said:
Why is this? Blackmagic will never look as good as Red unless in certain few and specific situations.

Even then Red is always better. WHY?

Blackmagic users who have never shot red, don't know this.
Is it the bit depth? What is it?
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No point getting into a passing match on this forum, but I’ve shot both extensively.

I’ll continue to choose both platforms when the specifics of the job calls for the advantages of the given camera platform.

It’s naive to make statements like “never look as good as..” and “ x brand is always better”

JB
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Caveat- I have not graded any recent (last 2 years) BlackMagic material. When I have, the most prominent weakness was poor colorimetry in mixed lighting. IMO, RED's color science is more refined and accurate. To be fair, there were color tracking issues in RED's early iterations as well. Fortunately, RED has Graeme Nattress, who has proven adept at continually tweaking the formula to where it is today.

FWIW: Bayer pattern CMOS tech requires a sophisticated algorithm to get good color. BMD's new take on color masking includes clear photo sites, which I expect will become more common. Sensor designers want both better sensitivity and more accurate color, which, at least in theory, more sophisticated masking patterns could provide. To actually yield those potential benefits, the algorithms need to effectively utilize these data sets to construct an accurate image. Unless you have a magic wand, that's going to take a minute or two.

Cheers - #19
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It’s funny because my experience is the opposite of this.

I think RED cameras (generally) have a great wonderful sweet spot when you have control of the lighting, especially around daylight colours, but they fall off a bit of a cliff once you get into more complicated mixed lighting situations. I find them especially tricky in warmer white point lighting (like candle light) mixed with other colour.

I post this opinion very reluctantly here because this forum has a history of not being kind to those that disagree in a way that would appear to slight the brand.

JB
 
Personally I find the non-bayer design of the 12k sensor to be the most genius thing to happen in CMOS imaging for motion picture in the last 10 years.

I have no idea how fast the readout time is on this 12k sensor, but I’m quite enthralled with the options this brings.

I don’t think you can compare this sensor to really anything else out there right now.
 
Dan Kanes said:
Personally I find the non-bayer design of the 12k sensor to be the most genius thing to happen in CMOS imaging for motion picture in the last 10 years.

I have no idea how fast the readout time is on this 12k sensor, but I’m quite enthralled with the options this brings.

I don’t think you can compare this sensor to really anything else out there right now.
Click to expand...

Dan for full sensor 12K it’s 15.7ms in 12K (up to 60 FPS)
In full sensor (not windowed) 8K it’s 7.8ms (up to 120 FPS)

JB
 
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