Blackmagic Mini Ursa 4.6K New Footage looks darn good.

[shashbugu]

I wouldn't go that far. I think John Brawley and Kholi for instance are sincere and hard working. They give a lot. I think the danger of being so tightly connected to the products themselves though is that it may be difficult to remain detached when negative or opposing viewpoints are expressed. That is a bit of a narrow tightrope to walk. Really my problem remains with many members who seem to have no difficulty in participating in character assassination or make all kinds of absurd and wild assumptions in order to deny that issues may exist. The craziness around the whole BH thing is an example of this for me. Really the idea that other manufacturer's are providing negative feedback in order to tarnish the reputation of BM is absurd, borderline paranoid. Further, it is a great way to throw out all the legitimate issues which are raised. All you need to do is slightly tarnish someone or something and any annoying facts breaking through the dream can thus be totally ignored.

I see lot's of denial going on over there. For instance, the 4K version of the URSA Mini is extremely flawed from a QC perspective. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Many of the things LR mentioned are true about that camera. I know at least 3 people who have returned theirs here in Europe (and more than once) because of it and yet from the attitude of the many people at BMCuser these are obviously just newbies who don't know how to use it properly. Never mind that these are actually quite experienced DP's and know what they are looking at. However, I just didn't feel like having to defend them too by even bringing it up. And that is how you get people to shut up and a resulting lack of diversity in your forums. It's a shame really.

Here is a very recent post from a BMCuser member about LR:

Need I say more? Seems a bit out of control, no?

Wow! We need to teach them the difference between fanboyism and hooliganism.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I wouldn't go that far. I think John Brawley and Kholi for instance are sincere and hard working. They give a lot. I think the danger of being so tightly connected to the products themselves though is that it may be difficult to remain detached when negative or opposing viewpoints are expressed. That is a bit of a narrow tightrope to walk. Really my problem remains with many members who seem to have no difficulty in participating in character assassination or make all kinds of absurd and wild assumptions in order to deny that issues may exist. The craziness around the whole BH thing is an example of this for me. Really the idea that other manufacturer's are providing negative feedback in order to tarnish the reputation of BM is absurd, borderline paranoid. Further, it is a great way to throw out all the legitimate issues which are raised. All you need to do is slightly tarnish someone or something and any annoying facts breaking through the dream can thus be totally ignored.

I see lot's of denial going on over there. For instance, the 4K version of the URSA Mini is extremely flawed from a QC perspective. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Many of the things LR mentioned are true about that camera. I know at least 3 people who have returned theirs here in Europe (and more than once) because of it and yet from the attitude of the many people at BMCuser these are obviously just newbies who don't know how to use it properly. Never mind that these are actually quite experienced DP's and know what they are looking at. However, I just didn't feel like having to defend them too by even bringing it up. And that is how you get people to shut up and a resulting lack of diversity in your forums. It's a shame really.




Here is a very recent post from a BMCuser member about LR:



Edit: It appears the one who posted it followed it up by saying:

CB, I didn't know that John was over there and don't know who Kholi is. Seen that bunch of skin heads in discriminatory biased character assinating kluklux clan mode before and it is not worth going back or lending your name to such a place. John is over at the right official BMD forum and is reasonable and you can have a talk to him, but it tarnisheshes reputation being around people like on that other forum. If they chucked 25% of the people off rather than enabling them it might be a good place. We used to have such people here (but nowhere near as bad) after the scarlet fixed announcement, and have finally got more back towards normal, as more of the nuckle dragging rednecks appeared to have turned up there, even European ones unnusually.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?16812-4-6k-Ursa-Mini-magenta-issues/page7

Check post #68. Things are not looking good over there at BM. Folks at BMCuser are not happy.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

There is an issue, different sensor set ups have different incidents angles of light they can accept. So fast lens aperatyrss in particular incorporate extreme angles of light that don't interact properly with then sensor setup. The problem might even be in the color filter array or other filter. Now, the extremities of the lens might be giving out something, even invisible, that is interacting and producing visible colors. So, it doesn't matter if a lens dues not produce the same coverage results on different sensors, as the results can be specific to this sensor setup.

We had this issue back in the beginning of diy digital cinema camera projects. I wanted a 3 chip solution, but as you went past f1.6 you got a bad image. Now, just because you have f0.85 lens, it not mean it will work properly on a single chip sensor.

 

[Peter Moretti]

The thing I find more annoying and problematic is the mention of weak IR filtration. Don't want to go through finding the right IR + ND filters. RPITA, and really a deal killer.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

There is an issue, different sensor set ups have different incidents angles of light they can accept. So fast lens aperatyrss in particular incorporate extreme angles of light that don't interact properly with then sensor setup. The problem might even be in the color filter array or other filter. Now, the extremities of the lens might be giving out something, even invisible, that is interacting and producing visible colors. So, it doesn't matter if a lens dues not produce the same coverage results on different sensors, as the results can be specific to this sensor setup.

We had this issue back in the beginning of diy digital cinema camera projects. I wanted a 3 chip solution, but as you went past f1.6 you got a bad image. Now, just because you have f0.85 lens, it not mean it will work properly on a single chip sensor.

The problem is that some Ursa Mini 4.6K sensors are showing magenta vignette when shooting a flat, evenly lit surface without a lens on.

 

[Peter Moretti]

I think shooting w/o a lens on may not be the best way to run a test.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

BM had their chance with this camera to come out with something that should have been on par with Red, Alexa or Sony. They have been experimenting with different camera shapes and types and so on for a while now and the knowledge they should have gotten from doing that should have gone into making the mini the best camera to date. Reliable, good images, professional workflow and so on. That they screw things up again, is just a nail in the coffin. Why anyone would want to go down the BM route is over my head. Especially when there's cameras like the Alexa mini, Raven and Scarlet-W. Only amateurs with less to none of actual field experience would buy equipment that fails over and over on set.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Christopher, it's about one tenth the price of a workable Alexa Mini.

 

[Iain Philpott]

BM had their chance with this camera to come out with something that should have been on par with Red, Alexa or Sony. They have been experimenting with different camera shapes and types and so on for a while now and the knowledge they should have gotten from doing that should have gone into making the mini the best camera to date. Reliable, good images, professional workflow and so on. That they screw things up again, is just a nail in the coffin. Why anyone would want to go down the BM route is over my head. Especially when there's cameras like the Alexa mini, Raven and Scarlet-W. Only amateurs with less to none of actual field experience would buy equipment that fails over and over on set.

Ultimately it's all down to personal experience. Because of the very small form factor I've shot quite a bit on two BM Pocket's I own for UK high st chains. Never ever had one problem including one film shot in hideous conditions in the Outer Hebrides. Had to shoot some 4K footage on the back of a stills shoot in Cape Town earlier this season. Normally I would rent RED with a DIT but the client was not willing to pay the £5800.00 rental so in fact ended up buying an URSA 4K v2 kit (with viewfinder) for £6k including media. Outstanding imaging however we did have a problem with frames dropped on some 100fps stuff we shot. We had no other problems. For now I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. Certainly on a full budget I would go back to trusty RED but I have to say in the none too distant past I can remember production companies refusing to allow shooting on RED because of reliability issues. Founded or not it, as my opening comment said, it ultimately comes down to personal experience. BM, just like RED did, is shaking things up. They will get there and surely the more that adds to the mix the better for everyone - no matter what budget you are working with?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Christopher, it's about one tenth the price of a workable Alexa Mini.

...and it's easily paid back when productions don't fall apart. Having one-tenth of that price won't help when you paid the rest for a production that goes fubar because of an unreliable camera. Reliability is the key component when shooting something.

They will get there and surely the more that adds to the mix the better for everyone - no matter what budget you are working with?

This is what I doubt they will, because they have already made many cameras. Red One had it's problems but over the year after it was introduced it went into a very reliable state. All productions I was involved with after those initial problems got fixed have never had any problems. BM is nothing like Red in this regard. I thought this camera was supposed to be the big break, that they finally put everything together into gold, but nope, they are still doing the same thing. Why someone doesn't get the Scarlet-W instead of this I don't know, higher price? Well, the highest price will be the one with the most problems.

I've worked in post with a lot of BM material and the problems most of the time turns up there. As I use to say, just because something works, doesn't mean it works.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Well, there's a Red camera in the window of a local shop, and boy its ugly compared to the BM Mini, even the BMCC near it. Maybe that is a reason

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The problem is that some Ursa Mini 4.6K sensors are showing magenta vignette when shooting a flat, evenly lit surface without a lens on.

Yep, that would be worse, but I did read them blaming the lens. What I said still goes if the opening to the sensor produces the vignetting by disturbing the blance of light at the outer edges, allowing more angle from the opposite side and shading from the matching side. (Use a torch accross the sensor and see if it changes).

Solutions, if it is from the lens as BM implies, learn the limits of the lens, and do a white field calibration with the lens on to compensate across the sensor. Then do post correction if still needed. Even if it is the lens, it is just very unfortunate.

Why BM does not include at least internal auto slide in white and black auto calibration chips is a mystery. Would help to do a one press recalibration when the cameras getting hit issue too.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Yep, that would be worse, but I did read them blaming the lens. What I said still goes if the opening to the sensor produces the vignetting by disturbing the blance of light at the outer edges, allowing more angle from the opposite side and shading from the matching side. (Use a torch accross the sensor and see if it changes).

This would make sense, except that if it is a sensor/port design issue, then we could expect to see uniform results across different cameras. As it is, some users have the issue, some don't, for some the vignetting is just in the corners, for others it's on the sides as well, and in most cases it is stronger on one or the other side of the sensor. To me, that screams QC problem. The cameras are performing inconsistently from each other.

 

[David Peterson]

The BMD products seem to cater to lower budget projects, which perhaps results in a lesser educated customer base? If so, maybe LensRental got tired of dealing with angry customers who failed to rent the necessary accessories, and in their frustration listed all these warnings in attempt to avoid further hassle?

This. A thousand times This.

I assume LensRental is a high volume company and thus customer service problem shooting can take up a large chunk of their costs. They'll want to do everything they can to minimize this (especially when they're making so little on each rental).

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Why anyone would want to go down the BM route is over my head. Especially when there's cameras like the Alexa mini, Raven and Scarlet-W. Only amateurs with less to none of actual field experience would buy equipment that fails over and over on set.

Actually I go down that route.

I`m shooting every BM camera (also Red and Arri) out there since years, and never had a problem
(never had a problem with Red cameras also, even in harsh environments).
Also my Ursa 4.6 doesn't have a magenta or FPN problem.

This is material from last year and early this year, including the Ursa.
At least I'm a happy camper.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Frank, have you noticed any IR pollution issues with the Ursa 4.6, esp. when using ND filters? Thanks so much!!

 

[Wayne Morellini]

This would make sense, except that if it is a sensor/port design issue, then we could expect to see uniform results across different cameras. As it is, some users have the issue, some don't, for some the vignetting is just in the corners, for others it's on the sides as well, and in most cases it is stronger on one or the other side of the sensor. To me, that screams QC problem. The cameras are performing inconsistently from each other.

Same lens same settings same conditions are what reproduces the same pattern in thus sort of issue I suggested. So, even without lens it will depend on the light sources in the area shining on the.sensor.

Now, I am giving BM the benefit of the doubt, as to their claim it is the lens setup. Again, a simple solution is white card calubratikns.smd testing.the pattern with out lens.and a light, to see if it changes as you move the light accross the sensor.and at different angles But the light should be.a wide spectrum like halogen or tungsten and not enough to damage the sensor.

If people are fortunate it will only mean some careful use to avoid, and not there permanmently.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Frank, have you noticed any IR pollution issues with the Ursa 4.6, esp. when using ND filters? Thanks so much!!

You always get IR pollution, when using ND filters on any camera (unless the camera has a good IR cut build in) - so yeah, I also see that on the Ursa, but I use a IR cut filter (Heliopan brand) religiously, even without NDs - so it's not a problem.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Thanks Frank!!