Blackmagic 4K for $2995 now?

[Michael Hastings]

You have got a black dot issue at 1:18 on the Blackmagic. Same issue they have had had on every one of their cameras.
Sun is in the frame and there it is, only now it is magenta instead of black.

Didn't I have that on my redone sn206 for awhile until it was fixed in firmware?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

What your saying just does not make any sense whatsoever. I could understand it if the talent has absolutely flawless skin. That gradation of tone the Epic gives is fabulous. I shoot all cameras for different reasons. If I had a model in front of me with pimply dodgy skin I would be reaching for the camera with less resolution. I've shot for Revlon, L'Oreal etc and where post has limitless budget I would agree but there are times when the BMPCC in RAW could save you a lot of grief. The Epic in 90% of situations will always win through and so it should given the price difference but there are times when a little less sharpness is good and I say that because I agree with you on diffusion.

What I say makes perfect sense. Epic has real, smooth resolution - but BM cameras with their absent OLPFs have "false sharpness" that over-emphasises skin imperfections. It has nothing to do with resolution numbers - it has to do with the quality of that resolution and its lack of aliasing.

The hard white clip combined with that makes skin look greasy and unhealthy. Its' plain to see in the video. Reducing resolution is excruciatingly easy in post - so I don't see why anyone who has ever seen a copy of After Effects running would choose a lower resolution cam "to help a model with bad skin"- but you need clean smooth details to begin with, not aliased, no-olpf crunchy hardness. The crunchy hardness would be a problem even at 720p. In fact it would be a bigger problem because the size of the sharpening effect an absent olpf produces would be even larger in the frame, whereas on a 40 megapixel large format Leaf back (which also has no OLPF) it's not always obvious at all (and also photographers can use Photoshop, we have lesser retouching tools).

Again though, for $3K, it's way better than a DSLR - and an awesome student cam, and a great deal for beginners fooling around - but for pro work (even corporates - imagine making your executives all look 5 years older…) it's just not suitable.

Whether you think what I say makes sense or not it's super plain to see in the video.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

and here is how the blackmagic 4k handles the shadows at 1:10
(watch full screen)

I wouldn't really say that demonstrates shadow handling considering the 1DC is clearly in LOG space and the BM is in "film" which isn't very log at all. If you lifted the blacks in the BM footage it would look a lot closer to the 1DC. That's a large reason I don't like to shoot REDLogFilm on my monitor since it tricks me into thinking there is less noise in the shadows than there is.

 

[Tarek salman]

Hey frank, sorry English is not my first language. I will try harder next time.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I dont suppose that idea would involve using the in lens motors or DSLR lenses would it ?

From what I understand the motors they use for electronic stills lenses are not engineered for the type of usage typical for motion imaging scenarios. Precise adjustment and control limitations, durability, repeatability, etc are all issues.

That said, I do believe that a new generation of electronic lenses designed for hybrid applications will hit the marketplace. Clever designs that allow the use of smaller motors with more precise control would seem like the obvious next step with a big market of people who need something like a Cabrio and are willing to give up a bit of performance/build quality for a much lower cost.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

From what I understand the motors they use for electronic stills lenses are not engineered for the type of usage typical for motion imaging scenarios. Precise adjustment and control limitations, durability, repeatability, etc are all issues.
Cheers - #19

So much for your understanding Blair Do you have any technical facts to support your statement. Like duty cycle for the motors , encoder bit depth, etc.. It would be nice to see some facts to back these urban legends up for once
Sorry guys external servo boxes/motors belong in 2/3" cameras and 20th Century. Not legacy worth keeping. Big, bulky, expensive, power hungry. Do not play nice with today light power efficient reasonably priced cameras. Like the $2995 BMPC. I still maintain that this camera is designed and made for UHD broadcast market. An adapter for a 50x or 100x box studio zoom is what's needed here....

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

So much for your understanding Blair Do you have any technical facts to support your statement. Like duty cycle for the motors , encoder bit depth, etc.. It would be nice to see some facts to back these urban legends up for once
Sorry guys external servo boxes/motors belong in 2/3" cameras and 20th Century. Not legacy worth keeping. Big, bulky, expensive, power hungry. Do not play nice with today light power efficient reasonably priced cameras. Like the $2995 BMPC. I still maintain that this camera is designed and made for UHD broadcast market. An adapter for a 50x or 100x box studio zoom is what's needed here....

Life cycles for photography lens motors are likely related to still image capture, not continuous focusing while motor encoder bit depth takes care of precision between steps. None of those cover durability, usability and repeatability for prolonged motion imaging usage which puts a significantly higher strain on AF system. Stepper motors by their design generally have lower torque at higher speeds.

If you have some info which shows more benefit in current stills lens approach, it would be helpful.

At this point the discussion related to this topic is based on additional premise that still lens manufacturers did not invest millions in research, development and manufacturing for product features/capabilities which are not the priority in targeted market segment.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

This is a wrong thread for it but let me just say that all these statements are wrong and not based on any facts. If you bothered to do the research you would know that still AF lens motors work a lot harder in still photography than in motion setup.
You would also know that repeatability not only extends to one copy but to all copies of the same lens. Try that with cine lenses As for precision ? the bit depth in the encoders for USM motors is unmatched by any external motor on the market. Noise ? lets just say one word -ultrasonic. Resolution? how about a 24Mpix camera sensors? Image stabilization? Check!!
BTW the manufacturers already invested milions with great results. Not to mention the cost... Broadcast, sports, (EFP) docu, corporate, music videos, marketing campaigns already use it extensively- I know- I talk to them every day. This setup is already a winner for fast moving light weight productions. Just a matter of time for the narrative to embrace it as their style is changing as well towards fast paced production style... and it's only going to get better- I promise you

 

[paul schefz]

Can we bring this back on topic? Here is a little video showing how the BMC 4k can be intercut with epic.....although I have to say that the 2.5k also works well....for HD....
http://nofilmschool.com/2014/02/bla...oes-head-to-head-with-the-canon-1dc-red-epic/

as as for the lens discussion: Jacek is spot on IMO....

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

This is a wrong thread for it but let me just say that all these statements are wrong and not based on any facts. If you bothered to do the research you would know that still AF lens motors work a lot harder in still photography than in motion setup.

a) This thread is related to a price reduction of BM camera, causing unrealistic expectations, comparisons out of context (based on pixel count etc) , and often seen tendencies of seeking loopholes to avoid investing in professional equipment designed from the ground up for specific purpose. Clarifying few things to avoid unrealistic expectations, even if related to lens capabilities not only is on topic but is also helpful. Although less popular for understandable reasons.

b) There are no assumptions and suggestions presented about your experience and expertise and it would be appreciated if the approach and shown attitude would be adapted for more productive discussion.

c)
- Short time frame - stills - more work > photo lens (click >fast focus > done)
- Continuous motion imaging work > broadcast lens ( holding focus fluidly)
- 35 mm stills lens used for AF in motion imaging (for some reason) - reliability, smoothness, longevity with same type and amount of work > to be revealed within few years of continuous power usage

You would also know that repeatability not only extends to one copy but to all copies of the same lens.

Repeatability over time.

As for precision ? the bit depth in the encoders for USM motors is unmatched by any external motor on the market. Noise ? lets just say one word -ultrasonic. Resolution? how about a 24Mpix camera sensors? Image stabilization? Check!!

Precision, picture quality etc are not in question. Durability and usability of those motors are.

No one is making superficial generalizations that stills lens cannot be used in different motion imaging scenarios with great results. The point of valuable distinction here is in possible trade-offs especially related to parts designed and optimized for different usage.

BTW the manufacturers already invested milions with great results. Not to mention the cost...

Manufacturers invested millions in features specific for specific market. They also have on their payroll specialists to analyse each market's priorities and optimize company's investments.

As in - not giving away special features for nothing. As in - making a $1500 still lens with same capabilities for motion imaging as a $20000 broadcast one. If they did, regardless of how desired that scenario is for some, that would make their business practice "less than smart". Mildly put.

Broadcast, sports, (EFP) docu, corporate, music videos, marketing campaigns already use it extensively- I know- I talk to them every day. This setup is already a winner for fast moving light weight productions.

I've shot all those types of projects you mention, and not only I find AF route rarely useful for them, having shot 1/3", 1/2 & 2/3" I would find even less useful 35 mm AF approach.
I have yet to see a 35 mm stills zoom with focusing fluidity ( both manual and auto) and practicality comparable to any of those broadcast cameras. I am welcoming your suggestions.

In the examples you mention, typically the trend is based on grabbing DSLRs based on price and stills dual usage, greatly influenced by influx of photographers into motion imaging and generally less experienced motion imaging shooters and those shooters who are willing to trade 35 mm sensor size for operability and this does not represent a realistic picture for optimal usage.

Just a matter of time for the narrative to embrace it as their style is changing as well towards fast paced production style... and it's only going to get better- I promise you

Narrative is based on focusing type which depends on particular storytelling context, which dictates specific, scene varying and subtle rythm and feel, best utilized by a human hand. Attempting to replace it by a similarly capable algorithm would entail sufficiently operateable interface with a huge practicality trade-off.

Yes, technology is improving every day. In times when those improvements lead to relying on that technology to replace development of skills, and in times when those advancements are feeding expectations of getting more and more for less and less invested, bursting bubbles is not only beneficial, it is of crucial importance.

Regardless of how it may seem or feel in that moment to someone who currently cannot see the cause for this or past the first impression.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I'm sorry for not making myself clear enough as you have obviously completely missed the point. I'm not talking about autofocus as this is a camera feature- not lens. But I digress from further derailing this thread- I did enough damage already - sorry

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is a wrong thread for it but let me just say that all these statements are wrong and not based on any facts. If you bothered to do the research you would know that still AF lens motors work a lot harder in still photography than in motion setup.
You would also know that repeatability not only extends to one copy but to all copies of the same lens. Try that with cine lenses As for precision ? the bit depth in the encoders for USM motors is unmatched by any external motor on the market. Noise ? lets just say one word -ultrasonic. Resolution? how about a 24Mpix camera sensors? Image stabilization? Check!!
BTW the manufacturers already invested milions with great results. Not to mention the cost... Broadcast, sports, (EFP) docu, corporate, music videos, marketing campaigns already use it extensively- I know- I talk to them every day. This setup is already a winner for fast moving light weight productions. Just a matter of time for the narrative to embrace it as their style is changing as well towards fast paced production style... and it's only going to get better- I promise you

Im totally a quality Nazi. I would never shoot with a BM camera, but I use Jacek's products all the time. They and Canon L lenses do not disappoint.

 

[James T Mather]

I have to say that I find the pictures from this camera very film like. The colours look like they really pop to me. Noise and low light performance isn't great but that's the compromise due to the price point. It is really filmic though.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Im totally a quality Nazi.

No you are not.

If you would be a quality Nazi, you would shoot nothing but uncompressed raw.

:001_smile:

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I love the idea of using lower cost, lighter weight lenses for motion imaging if they can do the job. I can assure you I am NOT someone who thinks that only bulky external motors can handle FIZ control for narrative projects. Jacek is correct that I have not done extensive research on the electronic motors used in stills lenses. I would welcome an in depth thread about various lens types that can be used for motion imaging - regardless of what they were designed for initially - that breaks down various mechanical and optical issues.

In terms of what this thread should be about, I will continue to post about lens options for the camera under discussion since its kind of useless without one ;-). I'm also going to discuss ergonomics because I think they matter and, IMO, camera forums are the right place to let manufacturers know what we think. Some users are fine with the form factor of the BMCC, IMO it requires a cage/handle/aks to be usable in a professional context. Perhaps part of the "new normal" is that camera heads are essentially just "cores" within modular systems - in which case my beef with the "out of the box" form factor is meaningless.

The OP mentioned the price point right in the thread title so I think it's appropriate to look at what it would cost to put together a professional rig. Just like with the RED Epic as the core, a production ready package typically includes many thousands of dollars of "gack" to meet operational needs. While a kitted out BMPC4K package is likely to be substantially less expensive than an Epic based package, any real world buyer comparison needs to consider more than just the price of the camera head.

How about at NAB every manufacturer puts together a "standard" rig for shooting off the shoulder that can be quickly mounted/removed from a professional fluid head. They have a "demo" guy shooting around the booth to a live monitor and showing folks where they hold their hands when focusing/zooming/run-stop/etc, how they adjust balance, etc. There should be a complete list, including price, of every item rigged to the camera with a "total cost as shown" number. There could be several "trim levels" (like they do for options packages on cars) to facilitate comparisons. If one of the more affordable "sample builds" uses lenses designed for stills capture with servo control of the electronic motors via the Optitron/BeBob or other demand unit(s) I'd love to get some hands on time to see if I would feel comfortable that I could deliver what the director asks for using a particular setup.

Cheers - #19

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

No you are not.

If you would be a quality Nazi, you would shoot nothing but uncompressed raw.

:001_smile:

Quality Nazi within the bounds of practical reality and reasonable budgets. How would I shoot 5K uncompressed RAW? Red Code 3:1 is very, very close to uncompressed.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I have to say that I find the pictures from this camera very film like. The colours look like they really pop to me. Noise and low light performance isn't great but that's the compromise due to the price point. It is really filmic though.

"Film -like" has no actual meaning. Are you talking recent Hollywood films, 1960s Cinema de Verite, 1970s horror?

If you mean it resembles film stock, I know of no film stock that artificially sharpens skin pores and hard clisp whites- so me thinks you have an very odd perception of "film like". To me it looks more like early digi Betacam, but at high resolution. OK, probably not that bad, but in that direction.

 

[Nick Fury]

I just took belated delivery of two Blackmagic Production 4K cameras, ordered in April. I have a CF Dragon, FCPX and Resolve lite. Any additional experience with images from the BM offering? Any other ways to get a sort of discount on Resolve Full version? Seems like selling one, at least, is prudent now.

thank you very much

Fury

 

[EMMANUEL DELPECH]

I checked out pretty much every video shot on this for now, and aside from a huge 4K 1.5 gb file, I'm not convinced. They keep talking of how filmic Blackmagic looks, and I just don't see it & understand it, always felt a lot of it looked videoish, and although that one 1.5 gb video did look pretty good, I still find myself more attracted to Red cameras, correct me if I'm wrong since I haven't shot with Red yet, and am planning to on the Scarlet this year, but I feel like Red tends to have a unique look, although of course, it all depends of what you do with the RAW image & such, but there's definitely, to me, a particular aesthetic, that can be very pleasant when you know what you're doing with it. Actually, when I think Red and mostly movies like Prometheus, The Social Network, TGWTDT, TASM, or Lone Survivor, The Hobbit movies, Pacific Rim, Elysium, The Kings Of Summer, House Of Cards, The Great Gatsby, etc etc, I think "cinematic", and not "filmic", which I think are two very different things although I can't really put it into words. HOC for example, to me, screams cinematic.