Blackmagic 4K for $2995 now?

[Hrvoje Simic]

Red is overpriced and not all that special. They really need to come up with something innovative if they want to stay in the game. Simply increasing resolution and DR won't cut it anymore.

I see you're new here.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

High quality, high framerate, high DR sensors have been developed to the point where they are off-the-shelf commodities and BMD had all of the other pieces (capture, storage, conversion, grading software, etc) in place in mass production with the concomitant costs savings from the ASICs already developed.

The lack of experience in building cameras is visible though, regardless of experience with electronics.
Camera is far more than a box of electronics.

It seems as numbers game has been pushed as the main focus in recent trends, and many cameras allow very respectable picture quality these days, but as a consequence many other elements have been marginalized.

Panasonic, Sony, Canon, etc. have these technologies fully developed as well and will compete with equivalently price/performance products as soon as they both feel the pressure and can fit it into their overall marketing mix.

Panasonic, Sony and Canon have different market approach. Hopefully it stays different.

Also, hopefully the trend of stills camera product design forcefully thrown into motion imaging world through DSLRs is ending soon, together with this ergonomics circus it caused.

BMD like RED doesn't have any other products to worry about cannibalizing sales from so they just put it out there at whatever mix of price, performance, and sales volume they think will work best. Being the new kid on the block, BMD had to put it out at a pretty disruptive price/performance ratio to get attention.

Sony and Panasonic have spent decades and likely billions evolving ergonomics, practicality and functionality of their products, so it is understandable why going three steps back in those departments is unlikely to become a part of their business practice.

 

[David Kellermann]

To get back to the topic... the 4k BM cam gets shipped (see Redshark and other websites) and judging the published beta videos, the pictures it makes are quite nice.

I'm not a fan of the 2.5k or the pocket, especially because of the rolling shutter, but since the new 4k cam has a totally different sensor (different sensor company), and it's quite cheap, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be a viable option for everyone who's looking into a cheap 4k film camera.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Most is nonsense, pompous nonsense when owners are hoodwinked. Liquid lens technology is one of the upcoming technologies for higher quality more compact optics at lower cost. People are often saying you get what you pay for, but we don't seem to accept that BM is a lesser camera. It is something with its own market, capable of doing the job to a degree, why are we arguing here. I would put a $300k lens on a $3k camera if that was going to be a on the spot safe option (no damage wear or tear). A acceptable camera with acceptable optics for low end productions can be done, even for mid range productions. Most of the supposed common knowledge of design issues comes from marketing, manufacturer pricing and hype. I deal with people and technical issues that leave BM and Red behind, a lot more can be done than people give credit for.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I deal with these people every day. It's not about what can or should be done- it's about what the owners decide to do. for camera at this pricing level this is the perception- I experience it every day...
Nothing wrong with that BTW-it's rather smart to think out of the box solution- especially if they save money and (fully) utilize the latest tech to the max

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Show me the lens...

Show me the lens...

I am not claiming that any of the BM cams are not potentially solid choices for some users at their aggressive price points. My notes were in response to the theory that the BMPC4K camera would be a popular choice for hard-lined UHD EFP shows. As soon as a lens with appropriate capabilities at a sensible price becomes available that could happen. BM announced a very affordable option for running signal over fiber with comm and return that would lay the proper foundation for live event production.

I suppose you could pop on the EF to PL mount adapter, put a Cabrio on it and Bob's Your Uncle. That said, very few of the people I work with would risk using the BMPC4K as a key piece in building out a UHD multi-cam package because they're going to invest way too much money in the entire shebang to go with a camera made by a company with virtually no track record in that space.

Perhaps in a year or two there will be enough cowboys out there who do build out UHD multi-cam packages based on BMs platform, and have great results, to prove they offer a lower cost alternative with high reliability. Much cheaper and almost as good usually sells well - once that can be proven.

Cheers - #19

 

[Karim_Nassar]

and here is how the blackmagic 4k handles the shadows at 1:10
(watch full screen)

 

[Frank Glencairn]

While the BM doesn't use any noise reduction in camera, the Canon turns that little stones into pixel blobs, with it's aggressive algorithm - loosing any detail, and image information - 4k resolution goes straight out of the window and close to HD, if not lower. You can see this in the 400% crop (1:11)

 

[Karim_Nassar]

While the BM doesn't use any noise reduction in camera, the Canon turns that little stones into pixel blobs, with it's aggressive algorithm - loosing any detail, and image information - 4k resolution goes straight out of the window and close to HD, if not lower. You can see this in the 400% crop (1:11)

Completely agree.

I posted this as a display of what the bmcc 4k does, not which one of the two is best.

I expect the bmcc 4k camera to be annoying to use, ergonomics aside, needing a lot of light in about any situation.
Like you said skills come first and a good dp will adapt, but no need to start with a handicap to begin with.
Granted we are talking about a 3k camera, but I would wait on the performance of the uncompressed gh4 feed, and all of the 4k cameras that will most likely be announced very soon before ordering imo.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I would wait on the performance of the uncompressed gh4 feed, and all of the 4k cameras that will most likely be announced very soon before ordering imo.

Yup. The GH4 is gonna take a LOT of sales away from BM.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yes, but the GH4 is not half the cinema camera. Every body should watch what Panasonic and BM, and the Chinese do at NAB. Pana might have a better shooting version, (though probably fixed). That hybrid prototype, like the JVC, hasn't come out yet. If Pana could make it four times better with, 4kp50 as well, it would be interesting, p30 is too slow and specialist. Imagine if it could raw at visually lossless (or near that), even uncompressed out, these are real camera features, not a $100 camera features. Cineform are working on a standard and sell licenses.

 

[Trevor Emmerson]

Panasonic AF-200 for 5k. Basically a GH4 with XLR, ND wheel, active m43 mount and autofocus, internal 10 bit 4k 4:2:2, and uncompressed SDI out. Has to happen doesn't it? How many NAB's have Pana not had a new video camera for?

Blackmagic will probably have either something new or some variant of what they currently have, but are really going to piss people off if those camera's don't ship on time like the last 3 haven't. I'd be interested in the pocket cam with the 2.5k sensor from the original. Or the original camera with an active m43 mount instead of dumb. Or any of the current 3 sensors in a new body. Or global shutter variants of the other 2 sensors. Or a 4k pocket based on the Atomos 4k sensors that Nikon use in their 1 Series of mirrorless cams. And/or active CX mount options for new or old pocket. m43 has a great lineup of lenses but for 2.7 crop Nikon CX is arguably a better native mount, they do some pretty nice lenses like the 6.7mm wide zoom, 10mm f2.8 pancake, and beautiful 32 f1,2 prime.

 

[shashbugu]

Yup. The GH4 is gonna take a LOT of sales away from BM.

Sad I highly doubt that. The only think the Panasonic has going for it, is its stealth dslr look. The images from the GH4 are rather sharp stunning ideo images, but the BMC4k has depth, filmic thickness. The back order log alone will out sell any other DSLR. That is unless Canon makes releases a 4k version on its c100. The sensor is already a UHD. The 1DC, c100, c300, c500 sales have skyrocketed in the last few months. Even the 5D with its Raw capabilities.....
The Gh4 is no cinema camera and will only be for its never say die Gh3 fan base.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I dont suppose that idea would involve using the in lens motors or DSLR lenses would it ?

 

[Matt Hutchinson]

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

You have got a black dot issue at 1:18 on the Blackmagic. Same issue they have had had on every one of their cameras.
Sun is in the frame and there it is, only now it is magenta instead of black.

 

[Ethan Cooper]

Epic is slowmo which means higher compression. That said I'd still take the Epic. Look at the clouds in the earlier shots, it's probably due to the greater DR but the Epic's clouds look so much nicer.

But whatever, it's a $3,000 camera vs a $20,000 camera. One should be better than the other.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Same issue they have had had on every one of their cameras.
Sun is in the frame and there it is, only now it is magenta instead of black.

That's because magenta is the new black :beer:

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Is it great value at $3K? YES!!!!! Is it as good as a Red one MX? NO. Will producers understand this? I HOPE SO.

Again, look at how bad her skin looks in above video: No OLPF + not very nice highlight treatment = your makeup artist had better bring a spatula and extra large tubs of concealer to make your talent look good.

Red Epic skin looks way, way smoother. The same girl looks much prettier, younger and healthier, under the exact same light. If you think this doesn't matter, you will never make any real money as a DP or director, because a big part of what we do is make the talent look good, and few viewers want to look at people who seem to have greasy/pimply skin no matter what the plot. (And no, diffusion can't fix this, and fixing it in post usually looks very fake and bad and/or does not really fix the problem.)

This video will help me sell a lot of Epic shoots that would have gone to BM cams.

Un-clipped clouds are nice and all, as are the purely imaginary clients who ask for a 4K finish (and be able to tell the difference) but faces have to look right, no matter what. On Epic and Alexa faces look great. That's worth paying extra in my book.

 

[Iain Philpott]

Is it great value at $3K? YES!!!!! Is it as good as a Red one MX? NO. Will producers understand this? I HOPE SO.

Again, look at how bad her skin looks in above video: No OLPF + not very nice highlight treatment = your makeup artist had better bring a spatula and extra large tubs of concealer to make your talent look good.

Red Epic skin looks way, way smoother. The same girl looks much prettier, younger and healthier, under the exact same light. If you think this doesn't matter, you will never make any real money as a DP or director, because a big part of what we do is make the talent look good, and few viewers want to look at people who seem to have greasy/pimply skin no matter what the plot. (And no, diffusion can't fix this, and fixing it in post usually looks very fake and bad and/or does not really fix the problem.)

This video will help me sell a lot of Epic shoots that would have gone to BM cams.

Un-clipped clouds are nice and all, as are the purely imaginary clients who ask for a 4K finish (and be able to tell the difference) but faces have to look right, no matter what. On Epic and Alexa faces look great. That's worth paying extra in my book.

What your saying just does not make any sense whatsoever. I could understand it if the talent has absolutely flawless skin. That gradation of tone the Epic gives is fabulous. I shoot all cameras for different reasons. If I had a model in front of me with pimply dodgy skin I would be reaching for the camera with less resolution. I've shot for Revlon, L'Oreal etc and where post has limitless budget I would agree but there are times when the BMPCC in RAW could save you a lot of grief. The Epic in 90% of situations will always win through and so it should given the price difference but there are times when a little less sharpness is good and I say that because I agree with you on diffusion.