Blackmagic 4K for $2995 now?

[Steve Sherrick]

I agree with Blair on the traditional cine ergonomics however- absolutely horrible for anything else than TV. This big LCD screen will never work in any outdoor setting, for shoulder mount, dolly, tripod narrative this is a pretty hopeless...

The reality is that it's a data screen, for changing settings, entering metadata. You add an LCD, EVF, or hybrid. Just like you do with most cameras on the market. The only truly ergonomic cameras are broadcast cams, film cams like Aaton, and perhaps Alexa/Amira. A lot of other systems need accesories and kludgery to make it kind of work. Still workable and people get stuff done. But pure ergonomics are not always at the forefront of current camera designs.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

That probably depends on the personal preferences and a type of projects.

Fixed monitor often requires bending down for accurate framing which is not really great for the back.
Tripod shooting while having to stand directly behind a camera is less productive and practical because you have trouble reaching lens and tripod legs are in the way. Larger studio setups which are operated while standing directly behind the camera have additional eye-leveled closely positoned monitors and camera control is on the handles. Option B is typical broadcast shoulder mount camera with operator standing on the smart side with one hand one the lens and other on a pan bar.





That depends on its purpose.

For shoulder and tripod shooting typical broadcast 2/3" cameras are the most ergonomic.

I guess you forgot how TV station cameras sit on pedestals with cameras attached to huge lenses with the screen out back....
That's the setting I'm talking about...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I guess you forgot how TV station cameras sit on pedestals with cameras attached to huge lenses with the screen out back....
That's the setting I'm talking about...

I'm talking about the same thing, that was exaclty mentioned in that post.

Those cameras have eye leveled monitors, pedestals are further from the operator so he doesn't kick it or trip over them and camera controls are on the handles. That's why that route works nicely.

I understand that someone may find this useful as well based on personal preference and type of project, but it seemed beneficial to point out the differences to avoid generalizations and potential misconceptions.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have spent several thousand hours shooting "studio" style with an eye level monitor, FZ on handles, etc. Assuming a lens height in the 3' to 5' range the fixed rear monitor on the BMCC might work OK, though I found it a poor image for focusing due to limited native contrast and poor off axis viewing. AFIAK it also lacks the ability to take a return video feed from the switcher, something that is considered important in most live multi-cam EFP shows.

I suppose we could kick around which cameras are best for building up a good studio rig for a long day of shooting, but with the right add ons most do fine. FWIW the lens and focus/zoom controllers on the pan handles are typically more critical to precise tripod/pedestal operation than the camera body, but I digress.

If the BMPC4K proves itself in terms of IQ, reliability, media/compression metrics, etc then I suppose adding a couple grand worth of aks to rig it decently is hardly a deal killer.

Cheers - #19

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Can they changed the fact that previous versions couldnt even format the ssd media in camera?

 

[Mark K.]

I'm very confused by people's ergonomic hatred of the BMCs compared to Reds, both are bricks - so where's the advantage?

And at any rate, we should be delighted about this camera - its cost-point could see 4k reach mass-market penetration far sooner than it would otherwise, which boosts the demand for 4k content (and consequently demand for those able to provide it).

This is a good thing guys, don't feel threatened or get defensive - embrace it for what it offers, the chance to make 4k content relevant in a broader context.

 

[Karim_Nassar]

I would not bother with this camera, just read this quote from eoshd.com from John Brawley

“I wouldn’t be surprised if the RED has a slight edge in DR. RED has a very bottom heavy exposure spread.
It’s like it only has a couple of stops from middle grey in over exposure and 7 stops of useable shadow exposure.
Blackmagic’s cameras tend to be a lot more centred so you initially find have a lot more headroom.
I think people might get a little surprised at how fast it runs out of shadow room though.
But like I said, only if you’re used the current high DR generation of cameras. "

Kind of a weird way to advertise for a camera isn't it?

"you will only be disappointed in the shadow dynamic range if you have used the current high dr cameras"

lol what?

I have used the bmcc 2k and I will never use it again, it needs A TON of light to produce a decent image, what John Brawley calls "much more centered" is the poor performance in shadows I have experienced.
And it will be officially worse with the 4k version.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

You don't expose a BMC the way you expose a RED.
If you know what you are doing, both cameras are good enough for almost everything.
There is no "perfect camera for everything" It's just a tool, some folks get way to religious about cameras.
A decent DP picks the right camera for the budget/job, as he picks glass, lights andwhatnot.
That can be a Dragon or a GoPro.

 

[Tarek salman]

Blackmagic sound dumb. 10 steps to the back.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Is this English?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Perhaps lyrics to a song?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Blair

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the numerous HD trucks doing football, baseball, basketball, etc. are going to junk their 2/3" HD cams with 50x canon or fujinon zooms for these blackmagic cameras, but you may see them try it out to run a 4k delivery test - since there is virtually nothing out there right now that does live 4K.

The market is most probably the convention, meetings, and concert IMAG jobs once the venues have 4K projectors available - there are hundreds of these jobs everyday and even if they use regular HD for the near future it is a pretty attractive unit because there aren't many low cost options forHD with SDI or other solid connections (lots of little HDMI cams that can be used but not very solid or good for long distances) Blackmagic even has a very cool camera converter that takes the signal and converts it to fiber optic and also talkback, tally, and mic inputs for $595 each:

"Using low cost optical fiber you can connect to your cameras up to 28 miles away and even at those great distances you still get full bi-directional video, audio, talkback and tally signals." http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemconverters

Red cameras don't have video return either, but these converters could work with them as well. (but of course no 4K out right?)

I think people are missing the point - which is BMD has provided a compact package that has all of the main components built-in, at a breakthrough price point for 4K. Is it as good as the Epic, Alexa, Sony, Phantom, Canon offerings at 3,4,10 times the price? - no, but it in capable hands it is very close. Will it replace those cameras on decently budgeted movies or TV shows?, no. Will it put downward pressure on purchase and rental prices of those cameras?, yes just as the REDONE did.

As Robert Heinlein used to say about engineering "when it's time to railroad people railroad" meaning when all of the engineering pieces come together through the inevitable advances in knowledge and development it is only a matter of a short period of time before it is done by someone and doesn't necessarily require the "spark of genius". Something like this camera, at this price point was inevitable. High quality, high framerate, high DR sensors have been developed to the point where they are off-the-shelf commodities and BMD had all of the other pieces (capture, storage, conversion, grading software, etc) in place in mass production with the concomitant costs savings from the ASICs already developed.

Panasonic, Sony, Canon, etc. have these technologies fully developed as well and will compete with equivalently price/performance products as soon as they both feel the pressure and can fit it into their overall marketing mix.

BMD like RED doesn't have any other products to worry about cannibalizing sales from so they just put it out there at whatever mix of price, performance, and sales volume they think will work best. Being the new kid on the block, BMD had to put it out at a pretty disruptive price/performance ratio to get attention.

 

[Sid Idris]

Red is overpriced and not all that special. They really need to come up with something innovative if they want to stay in the game. Simply increasing resolution and DR won't cut it anymore.

wow. i remember when RED used to garner praise for the exact opposite.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Red is overpriced and not all that special. They really need to come up with something innovative if they want to stay in the game. Simply increasing resolution and DR won't cut it anymore.

I guess you are throwing the Alexa and F65 in that same category? What do you mean by special?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You know SI had a market for camera heads, and people keep complaining about POV placement and b camera stuff. I am here to publish about something similar, but BM could do the same thing with their s35 sensor, a $1000 camera head. But more on the Dragon head I'm suggesting elsewhere (no discussion here,BM instead). Go over to the Dragon thread when it is up to get an idea.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

FWIW I fully expect a lot of "4K" trucks will be stocked with the BMPC4K heads for "affordable" UHD/4K hard-lined EFP. Most of them will live on fluid heads and be operated from pan bars, often with a 2nd monitor rigged that can be precisely positioned relative to the operators eye line.

What is perhaps the more interesting question is lensing. AFAIK the BMPC4K is EF mount only and other than the Canon Cinema EOS zooms...

If I was building out a truck today I'd look pretty seriously at the Sony F55. It has live UHD out over 4x SDI or HDMI, mates well with the PL mount Fujinon Cabrios which are the obvious choice for a truck package, shares a lot of operational conventions with Sony's 2/3" broadcast rigs to facilitate usage by a large population of skilled operators, etc.

First show me a bunch of EF mount zooms with at least 10:1 ratios, servos designed for motion use, able to resolve UHD and under $10,000 to mount on the BMPC4K - then it gets more interesting.

FWIW when budgeting a truck build for covering live events the cost of the camera heads is a small portion of the pie. Support, lensing, FIZ (if not built into the lens), cabling, casing, etc appropriate for the task will easily add up to many times the cost. The Canon 30-300 zoom would be my first choice for performance, but its $45K and would still need motors/controllers for focus/zoom which is at least another $5K per lens. Mix in a decent tripod/head and you're looking at $60K per camera position - do you really want to run that package on a $3,000 camera head? Really?

With NAB creeping up on us there may be some lens options that make this scenario more plausible, but at the moment, I just don't see it.

Cheers - #19

 

[Wayne Morellini]

A lot of us just think of narrow markets, not about everybody else.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The Dragon thread is up go over and take a look.

 

[Tarek salman]

Blackmagic more like black crapp hhhh

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

FWIW I fully expect a lot of "4K" trucks will be stocked with the BMPC4K heads for "affordable" UHD/4K hard-lined EFP. Most of them will live on fluid heads and be operated from pan bars, often with a 2nd monitor rigged that can be precisely positioned relative to the operators eye line.

What is perhaps the more interesting question is lensing. AFAIK the BMPC4K is EF mount only and other than the Canon Cinema EOS zooms...

If I was building out a truck today I'd look pretty seriously at the Sony F55. It has live UHD out over 4x SDI or HDMI, mates well with the PL mount Fujinon Cabrios which are the obvious choice for a truck package, shares a lot of operational conventions with Sony's 2/3" broadcast rigs to facilitate usage by a large population of skilled operators, etc.

First show me a bunch of EF mount zooms with at least 10:1 ratios, servos designed for motion use, able to resolve UHD and under $10,000 to mount on the BMPC4K - then it gets more interesting.

FWIW when budgeting a truck build for covering live events the cost of the camera heads is a small portion of the pie. Support, lensing, FIZ (if not built into the lens), cabling, casing, etc appropriate for the task will easily add up to many times the cost. The Canon 30-300 zoom would be my first choice for performance, but its $45K and would still need motors/controllers for focus/zoom which is at least another $5K per lens. Mix in a decent tripod/head and you're looking at $60K per camera position - do you really want to run that package on a $3,000 camera head? Really?

With NAB creeping up on us there may be some lens options that make this scenario more plausible, but at the moment, I just don't see it.

Cheers - #19

Nobody will spend $25K, 12.5K or even 5K on a Fiz if the camera is $3K. forget about it. Nobody will spend $30K, 20K or even 12K on a lens for a $3K camera. Forget about it. Nobody will use 20lb , 15 lb or a 10LB lens lens on camera that weights 4 lbs. Forget about it.
Oh- I have an idea....