Black Shading Tests

[luigivaltulini]

I can confirm, I shoot everything with shading to 1/200 on my video at 25p.
When I did the first test months ago, I realized that most of you go up and less shutter was noisy ... and so I climbed up to 1/200 and have always used this shading.
Then of course the signals T / E are the wrong color ...
Ehehe maybe for what I do not complain of the noise ...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?110711-DRagon-but-what-is

 

[Elsie N]

I can confirm, I shoot everything with shading to 1/200 on my video at 25p.
When I did the first test months ago, I realized that most of you go up and less shutter was noisy ... and so I climbed up to 1/200 and have always used this shading.
Then of course the signals T / E are the wrong color ...
Ehehe maybe for what I do not complain of the noise ...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?110711-DRagon-but-what-is

Luigi, what color and how long before changing to that color?

 

[Jan Reiff]

i did a test with 1/400 shading and shooting 1/50, but honestly, the 1/50 shading looks better, ... will test more ...

 

[Ian D]

For me this is a revelation! Just did a quick test and all of a sudden 2000iso is usable, noise is greatly reduced. This was just a quick test but I will look into it more in daylight. 1/200 for 1/50. Thanks for the info gentlemen.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Jan Reiff]

i think i must test 1/200 right now ;-)

 

[Bohdan Klos]

How does Red not know about this? Such a significant problem can be improved by operating the camera incorrectly is just....wrong.

 

[Elsie N]

How does Red not know about this? Such a significant problem can be improved by operating the camera incorrectly is just....wrong.

Could just boil down to plausible deniability. That is, it's not in the manual but it just works, so... from a legal standpoint, perhaps it's best to let the customers discover and decide.

There's more to running an international business than meets the eye.

 

[ericyoung]

Very interesting if equally puzzling!

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Could just boil down to plausible deniability. That is, it's not in the manual but it just works, so... from a legal standpoint, perhaps it's best to let the customers discover and decide. There's more to running an international business than meets the eye.

Conspiracy theory much? You saying Red knew about this? But maybe I misunderstand your post.

Elsie, do you think my bomb squad rep is a reptilian?

 

[Elsie N]

Conspiracy theory much? You saying Red knew about this? Maybe I misunderstand your post.

I always thought my bomb squad rep was a reptilian.

Yes, I think you misunderstood my post because there is no conspiracy suggested.

What was suggested is that this camera is first and foremost a Professional camera being used on many big budget movies where Real DPs are lighting their scenes. To suggest they or anyone else use this work-a-round and then have poor results might be construed as improper business practice.

I'm no lawyer, but if I were running the legal dept at RED, I would advise against giving my blessing to use this as best practice.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Doing a “wrong” black shade basically means that the absolute black level is “off” on the recording. Say we want black to be at code value 100 in the raw file, and when BS is done correctly the black comes out at 100, well what they’re doing is artificially putting black in the raw file at 95 or 90. That just means that the image processing is going to crush the blacks a little…. Which can be identically achieved in post through crushing the blacks a little…. (try the shadow control for instance)

Graeme

 

[Elsie N]

Doing a “wrong” black shade basically means that the absolute black level is “off” on the recording. Say we want black to be at code value 100 in the raw file, and when BS is done correctly the black comes out at 100, well what they’re doing is artificially putting black in the raw file at 95 or 90. That just means that the image processing is going to crush the blacks a little…. Which can be identically achieved in post through crushing the blacks a little…. (try the shadow control for instance)

Graeme

So Graeme, is this something that would work for those who want a clean feed off their camera, and for the rest of us just do it in post?

 

[Nick Morrison]

So Graeme, is this something that would work for those who want a clean feed off their camera, and for the rest of us just do it in post?

Great question!

 

[Graeme Nattress]

So Graeme, is this something that would work for those who want a clean feed off their camera, and for the rest of us just do it in post?

I'd not use this as it's basically producing an un-calibrated reference in the R3D. If you wish to specifically crush a smidgen in the blacks for the visual feed, then black balance properly and use one of the appropriate controls - shadow probably works well for this, but contrast and user curves could be used too.

Graeme

 

[Nick Morrison]

Doing a “wrong” black shade basically means that the absolute black level is “off” on the recording. Say we want black to be at code value 100 in the raw file, and when BS is done correctly the black comes out at 100, well what they’re doing is artificially putting black in the raw file at 95 or 90. That just means that the image processing is going to crush the blacks a little…. Which can be identically achieved in post through crushing the blacks a little…. (try the shadow control for instance)

Graeme

Graeme, are these crushed blacks reversible? Ie fixable in RAW post?

Or are they permanently captured more "crushed" than if recorded with proper Blackshade?

 

[Phil Holland]

Graeme, are these crushed blacks reversible (in post)? Or permanently captured..."crushed" more than if recorded properly with accurate Blackshade?

More or less. It's a slight thing, but in reality you want to work within a good Black Shade's calibration range to get accurate tones recorded into REDCODE RAW. This rather heavy handed method is basically crushing out potential deep shadow information. And as Graeme has mentioned it's an un-calbrated way of shooting. Meaning your meter is slightly off for instance.

 

[Elsie N]

I'd not use this as it's basically producing an un-calibrated reference in the R3D. If you wish to specifically crush a smidgen in the blacks for the visual feed, then black balance properly and use one of the appropriate controls - shadow probably works well for this, but contrast and user curves could be used too.

Graeme

But, uhhh (how shall I say this) no pixels will be harmed in the making of this footage if say a person in charge of setting up the camera were to "accidentally" set up the camera "wrong" before doing the black shade?

 

[Phil Holland]

But, uhhh (how shall I say this) no pixels will be harmed in the making of this footage if say a person in charge of setting up the camera were to "accidentally" set up the camera "wrong" before doing the black shade?

Erm..... If people are underexposing by 2 stops what do you tell them? Seriously though. Anytime somebody has a question about proper Black Shading refer them to the manual and/or my data sheets on the subject. It's fairly clear and the camera gives you color coded warnings if you are doing things crazy wrong.

 

[Elsie N]

Erm..... If people are underexposing by 2 stops what do you tell them? Seriously though. Anytime somebody has a question about proper Black Shading refer them to the manual and/or my data sheets on the subject. It's fairly clear and the camera gives you color coded warnings if you are doing things crazy wrong.

It also gives you red sparkies in the shadows. '-)

For the record, I'm down with DEB. But I know there are some people on here who need something clean out of camera and if bumping up to 1/100 th gives them a feed they can use until something better comes along, where's the harm?

 

[Phil Holland]

It also gives you red sparkies in the shadows. '-)

D.E.B. is coming. Also, I mean this is really more of a personal note, shooting at 4K, 5K, 5.5K, and 6K for a 4K finish when projected or on a UHD 4K screen this whole "red sparkies" phenomenon was blown WAY out of proportion.

I'm actually blown away by what D.E.B. actually does. And while I enjoy reading the chaos of "will it happen in camera" or "now we have to process our footage in Redcine-X Pro". Just like a color science update, which this technically is, it will get released in the SDK and we'll see what Red can do about getting it deployed in camera. For 1080p HD-SDI or HDMI recorders this really shouldn't be an issue. I can see it "might be" something to look into when the 4K Broadcast Module lands later this year as some will be shooting 4K for 4K and I have no idea what the red specks look like in the uncompressed stream.

I'm astounded lately by the pixel peeping. Other cameras have some comical things that are never brought up and I'm not going to bash any manufacturer, but there's such hyper focus and insanity sometimes I'm wondering what people are doing exactly.

I'm also astounded that Red found a way to solve that red speck thing and did something that makes the footage overall better, but you know. I can see what's actually good about that.