Black Shading Nightmares

[David Battistella]

I also think it is unreasonable to think that every shoot has a DIT.

The portability of the EPIC can place it for day's in extreme locations and conditions without having a computer back up nearby.


My machine has not displayed this issue, but often you can shoot 5 or 6 cards before "looking" at things.


Reliability matters a lot.
Consistency matters a lot.


Bruce brings up fair, reasonable and well presented points.
Not every shoot is on a set with back up bodies.




David

 

[Christian Munoz D]

My machine has not displayed this issue, but often you can shoot 5 or 6 cards before "looking" at things.

David

Not a good policy then. Looking just once at the beginning of the shoot with or without DIT will save you a potential nightmare later.

 

[Rick Darge]

This isn't always the case Christian. I was on a shoot a week ago and halfway through our day, we noticed the same weird gradient light leak issue. We didn't have a DIT on this show so we had to pause production to do a black shade and then go through our clips to fish out which ones had this issue and which didn't. Another shoot I was on, the bottom 10% of the sensor had a weird horizontal line going through the clip. Very faint and not really noticeable. Once again, we couldn't afford a DIT on this show and no money for a backup body. And I think it's presumptuous to say that people experiencing this problem should have had a DIT or a backup body. When I spend 40 thousand + dollars on a camera, I want it to work every single day, every single hour, PERIOD. Saying you need a backup body is basically saying you don't trust the camera and that should be a big red flag. I'm hoping RMA can resolve whatever issue my particular camera is having. These cameras need to be rock solid if producers are going to continue hiring them.

 

[Sid Idris]

This isn't always the case Christian. I was on a shoot a week ago and halfway through our day, we noticed the same weird gradient light leak issue. We didn't have a DIT on this show so we had to pause production to do a black shade and then go through our clips to fish out which ones had this issue and which didn't. Another shoot I was on, the bottom 10% of the sensor had a weird horizontal line going through the clip. Very faint and not really noticeable. Once again, we couldn't afford a DIT on this show and no money for a backup body. And I think it's presumptuous to say that people experiencing this problem should have had a DIT or a backup body. When I spend 40 thousand + dollars on a camera, I want it to work every single day, every single hour, PERIOD. Saying you need a backup body is basically saying you don't trust the camera and that should be a big red flag. I'm hoping RMA can resolve whatever issue my particular camera is having. These cameras need to be rock solid if producers are going to continue hiring them.

I hope you'll keep us apprised of whatever comes of the RMA. This bug is certainly troublesome. It's a wonder anyone would purchase a second hand EPIC without a warranty. These crazy bugs can end up costing thousands in diagnostics man hours.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

I hear you Rick. Unfortunately you and Battistella are throwing words in my mouth I never thought about. Not very nice and rude indeed. I really appreciate to read toughly my post before to make waves.

This isn't always the case Christian. I was on a shoot a week ago and halfway through our day, we noticed the same weird gradient light leak issue. We didn't have a DIT on this show so we had to pause production to do a black shade and then go through our clips to fish out which ones had this issue and which didn't. Another shoot I was on, the bottom 10% of the sensor had a weird horizontal line going through the clip. Very faint and not really noticeable. Once again, we couldn't afford a DIT on this show and no money for a backup body. And I think it's presumptuous to say that people experiencing this problem should have had a DIT or a backup body. When I spend 40 thousand + dollars on a camera, I want it to work every single day, every single hour, PERIOD. Saying you need a backup body is basically saying you don't trust the camera and that should be a big red flag. I'm hoping RMA can resolve whatever issue my particular camera is having. These cameras need to be rock solid if producers are going to continue hiring them.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Hey Deanan, I sent you an R3D trim. Thanks again..

I noticed that when turning on false color, I don't see a discrepancy in the evenness of the sensor noise until I go over 2000 ISO, that's when the false colors begin to split. Does anyone else notice this with their Epics? Could someone put the port cap on their Epic, turn the body on from a cold start, crank up to the MAX ISO and turn on False Color and tell me if your image looks even?

Thanks! Hopefully I solve this issue soon!

Hi RIck
I used your settings.
I have 2 epic. Before ( blue at right ) the blackshading and after ( correct) blackshading.
If we can be of help, tomorrow when they are cool by retesting.
of course to 1800 degrees of temperature, the blue channel is very amplified .
excuse for my bad english.

regards

 

[David Battistella]

Not a good policy then. Looking just once at the beginning of the shoot with or without DIT will save you a potential nightmare later.

I agree that you are describing best practices but there are exceptions.

There are many, many, many situations where the EPIC does not come with a DIT or it is impractical.


What I am taking away from this thread:

Black shade at ambient temperatures.
Be aware of/check shots where there are large temperature swings.
Red is looking to have more preset black shadings in future builds

Until then awareness.

David

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

An update, my Epic is in the shop for evaluation

Good news!!!

Though if all of these issues go away with the Dragon sensor, I say stop worrying about the MX and just bring on the Dragon ASAP

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

RED Dragon upgrade aka Honey Badger could solve all those issues...!!!???

Btw, I'm also in a certain point a sort of Honey Badger aka a problem solver and maker of the right decisions!!!???

 

[Marc Wielage]

This isn't always the case Christian. I was on a shoot a week ago and halfway through our day, we noticed the same weird gradient light leak issue. We didn't have a DIT on this show so we had to pause production to do a black shade and then go through our clips to fish out which ones had this issue and which didn't.

Note that -- to some degree -- you can fix or at least greatly reduce black shading issues in the final color correction. This kind of thing happened all the time in the old days with film. Very careful gradiated power windows can eliminate this about 80%, maybe more if it's real subtle.

But in a perfect world, it shouldn't be there.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Rick if you are interested in my results.
2 RED EPIC.
Cold camera and camera hot after 15minutes.
Same result for both camera.
However,after 15minutes at 5600K, ISO800 24fps the black are perfect.

 

[Rick Darge]

After 15 minutes at ISO800 24 fps 5600k, crank it up past 2000ISO and tell me if you see any issues. If you do then it needs black shading which should solve the issue until you turn it back on again from a cold start. Let me know if you're seeing this

 

[Peter Mosiman]

I agree that you are describing best practices but there are exceptions.

Climb a mountain sometime. Film animals. Get in remote locations without a DIT cart.

The point is that there are many, many, many situations where the EPIC does not come with a DIT or it is impractical.

David

David,

You should look at his website and his work before making a statement like "climb a mountain." The man never once said anything about there always being a DIT, just that you should switch them out (he assumed there was one, thats all).

I don't see any judgement coming from Christian whatsoever. In fact, he seemed to be trying to help.

____
I've seen people going off about this issue on Twitter, @edmoore, a DOP from the UK who is working on the Red Dwarf series which is shooting Epic has had to black shade numerous times, which isn't good for production.
Really interested in how this issue comes around.

Cheers,
PM

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I'm seeing way too many posts on Reduser about various issues with the Epic, some of them severe, others less so. I have to admit reading them has made me worry about Epic-X reliability. At the same time I acknowledge that there are hundreds of Epic users around the world who have not posted complaints. Still, slightly worried nevertheless.

 

[David Battistella]

@Peter...

Point taken,

I wrote that really early this morning. (before coffee) I don't always creep everyones site here.

@Cristian. Sorry.

We are all trying to help. I may have read your post the wrong way. You know that once we are into "shooting mode" there can be several cards shot before we can have a really decent look at footage and there are many instances where, when things are happening rapidly, a lot of footage is collected before being able to examine it.

It looks like on some cameras cold starts can have this effect, it has not happened with me, but i'm glad this thread exists so I can be aware of it.

David,

You should look at his website and his work before making a statement like "climb a mountain." The man never once said anything about there always being a DIT, just that you should switch them out (he assumed there was one, thats all).

I don't see any judgement coming from Christian whatsoever. In fact, he seemed to be trying to help.

____
I've seen people going off about this issue on Twitter, @edmoore, a DOP from the UK who is working on the Red Dwarf series which is shooting Epic has had to black shade numerous times, which isn't good for production.
Really interested in how this issue comes around.

Cheers,
PM

 

[luigivaltulini]

After 15 minutes at ISO800 24 fps 5600k, crank it up past 2000ISO and tell me if you see any issues. If you do then it needs black shading which should solve the issue until you turn it back on again from a cold start. Let me know if you're seeing this

Rick this is after 15 min iso 800 to 2000 iso 5600k.
same for both camera.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

I had non uniform grainyness and this milky sensor problem 3 weeks ago on my brand new epic x #788. after noticing it I tried to black shade and got "calibration failure", i attempted to black shade on 3 different builds at all temps and concluded it was not a sw bug. I ended up sending the camera in and they said it was a bad component which was backordered, im still waiting to get my camera back. So for me this is a hardware issue.

 

[Rick Darge]

I had non uniform grainyness and this milky sensor problem 3 weeks ago on my brand new epic x #788. after noticing it I tried to black shade and got "calibration failure", i attempted to black shade on 3 different builds at all temps and concluded it was not a sw bug. I ended up sending the camera in and they said it was a bad component which was backordered, im still waiting to get my camera back. So for me this is a hardware issue.

How long has your camera been in the shop?

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

2 weeks I just got the email that it's shipping back to me.

 

[Rick Darge]

Awesome!

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Can you post an image of what this looks like not against black but an actual shot? Is it really that noticeable?

It looks like it might be an internal component gone bad, which is why this isn't happening to "most" users. I hope the issue gets resolved for you sooner rather than later. Do keep us posted with what RED tech says.