Black Shade Weapon Discussion

[Jason George]

Hi there, in prepping the Weapon for a job, we performed an 'auto' black shade, then followed the directions in the manual- SETTINGS > LOOK> SET FLUT TO 8, and we did see three distinct, vertical lines running through the frame, amidst a fairly random noise pattern. As per the manual, we tried another black shade but still had the vertical lines; in other words a non-uniform noise pattern. Of course there is no visible issue at normal FLUT settings, but I am wondering if anyone has seen this kind of thing so far, whether it should be of concern, and what the fix is. Thanks.
Page for following this technique is: Page 105. Thanks.

 

[David Battistella]

Just a few things to consider.

Was the camera brought up to operating temperature?
Are your monitor sharpness settings set past 50?

David

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Have you tried a manual black shade and compared the results? There may be an issue with the auto calibration that isn't present in the manual calibration.

 

[PatrickFaith]

On dragon epic you had to play with blackshading and fans to get it where you wanted, on weapon I do NOT touch anything and keep it as default as possible. Weapon is a major step from epic, there is no way for RED to have tested all combinations, so when you drift from default configurations you have become a bug tester. Anyway I think RED's default settings have been highly tuned like a drag race car, if you have any problems at this point set it back to default and only touch it if you can bring it back to RED LA for engine rebuilds.

 

[Jon Carr]

If shooting at a 180 degree shutter for all your frame rates, try doing a 1/72 manual calibration. That would cover you from 11-300fps at 180 degree shutter.

 

[Milan Spasic]

On dragon epic you had to play with blackshading and fans to get it where you wanted, on weapon I do NOT touch anything and keep it as default as possible. Weapon is a major step from epic, there is no way for RED to have tested all combinations, so when you drift from default configurations you have become a bug tester.

I'm sorry but this is not a good advice.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I'm sorry but this is not a good advice.

I think your wrong: constantly black shading is no longer necessary and sticking to factory defaults for a new camera is more stable. Also the first thing new RED camera owners should be doing is shooting the camera in default configurations, not black shading and changing factory settings.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

I'm still curious to hear if there is a qualitative difference between the manual calibration and the automatic calibration. Can someone run a quick test and see?

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm still curious to hear if there is a qualitative difference between the manual calibration and the automatic calibration. Can someone run a quick test and see?

Manual works like Epic, it calibrates using the current exposure. Auto goes through 16 different exposures. Auto takes way longer, but you will be able to adjust shutter without worrying about doing another black shade.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Manual works like Epic, it calibrates using the current exposure. Auto goes through 16 different exposures. Auto takes way longer, but you will be able to adjust shutter without worrying about doing another black shade.

Thanks for the response Bob. I get the difference in what it does. But I was curious if there is a qualitative difference between black shading specifically for a single exposure vs black shading across the entire exposure range? Will one produce qualitatively better results than the other for a given exposure?

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

I think your wrong: constantly black shading is no longer necessary and sticking to factory defaults for a new camera is more stable.

No, Milan is correct.

It is always better to black shade to a specific temp and shutter speed.
Auto-black shade is just a hack that auto-switches between a preset that is close to your current shooting conditions.
If you have time, black shade.
Auto black shade is for when you don't have time, or don't care enough about what your shooting to be bothered.

The manual black shade will allow for a more precise calibration at a given exposure.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

What's the difference between manual and auto-calibration? Wouldn't an auto-calibration be like a manual calibration but then work in auto?

 

[PatrickFaith]

No, Milan is correct.

It is always better to black shade to a specific temp and shutter speed.
Auto-black shade is just a hack that auto-switches between a preset that is close to your current shooting conditions.
If you have time, black shade.
Auto black shade is for when you don't have time, or don't care enough about what your shooting to be bothered.

LOL to new redusers that ignore the manual:

"WHEN TO CALIBRATE SENSOR
Calibration is required:
After an extreme change in temperature (+/– 30°F or +/–15°C) from the current calibration map.
After an extreme change in exposure time (+/– 1/2 sec) from the current calibration map.
If either the T or E in the CAL: T/E indicator is not green.
If the noise profile shows patterns or lines. For more information, go to “Check Noise Profile” on page 105.
After each firmware upgrade. "

I would also highlight this sections:

"ADAPTIVE (TARGET TEMPERATURE)
Adaptive is the default mode for the camera.
Select a Target Temperature and the fans self-adjust to maintain the selected temperature. The default TargetTemperature is 39°C. After the camera reaches the Target Temperature, and if the ambient temperature remainsconstant, Adaptive mode results in a consistent fan speed and fan noise over time.
Targeting a higher temperature raises the sensor temperature, lengthens the sensor warm-up time, and lowersthe fan speed. Targeting a lower temperature lowers the sensor temperature, shortens the sensor warm-uptime, and increases the fan speed.
NOTE: The intent of Target Temperature is to set the sensor temperature so that you can then create a calibrationmap for that temperature.
NOTE: When the camera turns on, the Target Temperature is the temperature of the current calibration map,regardless of what the Target Temperature was before you turned off the camera. Setting a calibration map alsooverrides the Target Temperature. For more information, go to “Sensor Calibration” on page 105. "

The problem with new reduser changing from default settings is they do not have enough experience in the new thermal controls (very few do because the thermal controls have changed drastically with weapon anyway),

Also the manual is very light on explaining how to check the noise profile with no examples, so requires a lot of expereince to know when that is off:

2. "CHECK NOISE PROFILE
   To check the current noise profile, follow the instructions below:
   2. Ensure that the camera reaches the temperature you want to use for your shoot.
   3. Set the exposure to the exposure you want to use for your shoot.
   4. Put a lens cap on the lens (if a lens is attached) or a front body cap on the camera (if a lens is not attached).
   5. Go to Menu > Settings > Look > FLUT.
   6. Set FLUT to 8.000.
   7. Check the noise that displays on the monitor:
      • ‒ The noise is random, with no fixed patterns or lines. The sensor is calibrated.
      • ‒ The noise has patterns or lines. Calibrate the sensor."

What was drilled into my head by the top experts in the field, after i graduated with a degree in integration of quantum sensors to computer systems, is before you do any sensor calibration make sure you have a stable thermal condition and power - so i'd also add one shouldn't touch the default (fan control & calibration) settings until after a thorough understanding of the "DSMC POWER OPERATION GUIDE".

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

What's the difference between manual and auto-calibration? Wouldn't an auto-calibration be like a manual calibration but then work in auto?

Auto-calibration "does NOT factor in multiple temperatures" - it just makes 16 black shades presets at different shutter speeds at the CURRENT termp, then picks the closest preset to the current shutter speed.

If temp has changed, auto calibration does not help you.

If your in a situation where you need to work fast and didnt know ahead of time that you need to alternate between high speed shots and normal 24fps shots, it could be useful.
If you can prepare, better to store multiple presets.

Auto calibration seems more like marketing than useful to me, its nice to have in an emergency but its not the solution, its not a magic software peltier cooler.

The problem with new reduser changing from default settings is they do not have enough experience in the new thermal controls (very few do because the thermal controls have changed drastically with weapon anyway).

Thermal controls are the same on Weapon as they have been on Dragon.

 

[Phil Holland]

Auto calibration seems more like marketing than useful to me, its nice to have in an emergency but its not the solution, its not a magic software peltier cooler.

It's what I've been using 90% of the time since receiving my Weapon last year. In practice, it's actually insanely useful.

 

[Luca Volpe]

I honeslty will not touch anything at all, if there is an outo setting that is the one I will do, if needed....I am new with Red so I will not mess with the system!

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

It's what I've been using 90% of the time since receiving my Weapon last year. In practice, it's actually insanely useful.

For me, I'm shooting 1/48 or 1/96 95% of the time, and then the occasional off speed shot.
The bigger variable is temperature, set heating up, outdoor to indoor, sun setting/weather, etc - which auto-cal cant help with.

If your temp changes you would need to re-do the whole 40min auto-calibration.

In what type of shooting conditions have you found it to be helpful?

 

[Phil Holland]

In what type of shooting conditions have you found it to be helpful?

If you know you're on a specific speed or angle it's all good. However, there's times where you want to have that "freedom" of shutter speed. Case in point, my vodka shoot a couple weeks ago. 1/48th, 1/60th, 1/96th, 1/120th, and 1/250th all happening on the same shooting day and back and forth between them. It certainly was handy then.

Also, on narrative action, where a DP may make the choice to go to something bizarre like 36fps for whatever reason it's handy too.

Totally agree that temperature is the next step. But Auto-Calibration is very, very useful. In Southern California where the weather is relatively stable I'm finding i'm not running the Sensor Calibration as much either.

 

[TheBied]

Auto-calibration "does NOT factor in multiple temperatures" - it just makes 16 black shades presets at different shutter speeds at the CURRENT termp, then picks the closest preset to the current shutter speed.

This statement is misleading. Data is used from multiple calibration points to calculate a map for your current settings.

If temp has changed, auto calibration does not help you.

The statement is also misleading. While the auto calibration routine does not run at multiple temperatures, coarse adjustments are made dynamically based on the temperature of the sensor.

Thermal controls are the same on Weapon as they have been on Dragon.

The same controls exist on both camera lines. However, the cooling system in Weapon is new and users should refer to the manual to understand it's behavior.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

This statement is misleading. Data is used from multiple calibration points to calculate a map for your current settings.

That seems worse to me, if its interpolating between two samples of FPN.
Its also not how it feels like it works - change from 1/48 to 1/60 nothing happens, I think its 1/96 when there is a pause and you can tell its switched to a new map, in between doesn't seem like anything changes.

The statement is also misleading. While the auto calibration routine does not run at multiple temperatures, coarse adjustments are made dynamically based on the temperature of the sensor.

My test was this: Shooting at sunrise in the desert, same shutter speed, sensor temp increased. Auto-calibration mode did not seem to do anything, there was no image pause like when it switches presets, T/E went yellow.
Switched to manual mode, black shaded. Compared footage later - manual black shade was definitely better. It was still very dark, so normal shooting conditions, maybe not as big of a difference - but it didnt seem to do anything to compensate for sensor temp change.

I understand the fight - trying to make the body smaller, quieter fans vs controlling the temp of the sensor, auto cal is progress - its just not the fully automatic set and forget mode that Patrick was implying.