Birger Mount

[Mark Pedersen]

A quick question that I really don't want to wade through the Birger complaint thread to find out.

Assuming it does ship, is it going to use the PL mount? Or do you have to remove the PL in order to mount the Birger?

If it's a total mount swap, I'm not interested. If you can keep the PL and just rotate in the Birger, that would be very cool.

Anyone have the answer?

thx,
M

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You have to remove the RED PL mount. We all still haven't seen full details on the birger mount, but it looks like you replace the RED PL mount with a mount plate of some type. This mounting plate that you should only have to shim and set once, will allow you to use Nikon, Canon, PL mounts from birger. Or at least that's the way I'm understanding it.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

Jeff,

Thanks for replying on this.

So it's similar in concept to what P+S techniques does for the Mini-35 adapters?

If so, that makes more sense in concept. Probably a pretty thin plate to allow Nikon mounts. Can't recall whether Canon sits further from the sensor plane than Nikon but I think that's right.

That would be a good way to go if it's engineered properly. It works well on the mini/pro-35 adapters because it's easy to swap the mounts without any need to shim.

Any sense of when that will be available? Or is that the big mystery at the moment??

M

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Pretty sure that is a mystery, although apparently they have started processing orders alphabetically and if I am correct will deliver in batches starting with november reservations 1st. The other confusing part is I, along with many others who placed reservation in Nov/Dec never had a credit card processed nor received a email confirmation so who knows.

I dont take delivery until April so I unlike others I dont have a reason to panic, still concerning. Correct me if I am wrong?

 

[donatello b]

it looks like i'll be in the 1st Birger canon shipment ..

Mark if i remember correctly you have some canon lens ?
so i'll have 103 & you have some lens = lets get together when the mount arrives?

for quick info on birger mount
http://www.redmodz.com/lensmounts

 

[C.H.Haskell]

I have a couple new canon lenses, 50mm EOS and 60mm macro EOS. Dont hesitate to call (or PM) if you want to test them and your in the neighborhood.

 

[wshultz]

You have to remove the RED PL mount. We all still haven't seen full details on the birger mount, but it looks like you replace the RED PL mount with a mount plate of some type. This mounting plate that you should only have to shim and set once, will allow you to use Nikon, Canon, PL mounts from birger. Or at least that's the way I'm understanding it.

Won't you still have the adjustabililty of Red's built in backfocus? So you only have to adjust once but not actually use shims do you?

 

[Paris Remillard]

Won't you still have the adjustabililty of Red's built in backfocus? So you only have to adjust once but not actually use shims do you?

No, the Birger mount completely replaces the Red PL- mount. So, according to the Birger guys, yes you will have to shim. But it shouldn't have to be done more than once since their interchangeable mounts will fit in front of the shimmed base of the mount.

 

[Jason Ing]

I've got Canon's 70-200L IS and 24-70L. I'm on the birger list, but won't get my Red until April. I'm located in LA. Test anyone?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Mounts in general

Mounts in general

Jeff,

Thanks for replying on this.

So it's similar in concept to what P+S techniques does for the Mini-35 adapters?

If so, that makes more sense in concept. Probably a pretty thin plate to allow Nikon mounts. Can't recall whether Canon sits further from the sensor plane than Nikon but I think that's right.

That would be a good way to go if it's engineered properly. It works well on the mini/pro-35 adapters because it's easy to swap the mounts without any need to shim.

Any sense of when that will be available? Or is that the big mystery at the moment??

M

Mark:

The thing to remember is that all of the still mounts are shorter flange focal distance than pl which is 52mm (EOS is 44, nikon is 46.5, Yashica/contax is 45.5 and leica is 47 so all can work on EOS with a mechanical adapter) but it is pretty much impossible to make a still mount that would go into the PL because they are all a lot shorter. Longer is easy, shorter won't focus (would require optics) That's why Nikon and others are easy to adapt to Canon but most don't work on Nikon at all.

The P&S style is the only way to make things quick change in that they sort of have a short intermediate bayonet that everything else quick mounts into, including their own PL mount.

Basically what has happened is RED has gone to a setup where the front end or the chip of the camera is not precisely aligned to a specific dimension so RED made an adjustable pl mount that lets you adjust for that.

The stock birger industrial/scientific Canon EOS smart mount that they have made for years has a 1.1" (~28mm) dimension that was very precise and then the camera makers would either manufacture their cameras to allow for that - i.e. since the Canon lenses expect a depth of 44mm the chip would be aligned 16 mm back, or they would shim to that depth.

The information below is what I have gathered from the prototype mount Erik supplied me 2 weeks ago for the shuttle shoot and from talks with him. I think it is mostly correct, but basically at this point we will have to wait until he gets it done, and announces it himself to get it 100%.

Originally for RED, since Birger was a major announcement at NAB 2007, Birger was going to make a special "Cine" version that would have the proper depth with out any shim/intermediate flange - much like the original RED pl mount was supposed to work. Apparently the RED manufacturing process did not allow for a sufficiently precise front end or chip alignment, so to avoid having to do individual custom/finicky/time consuming shimming for each camera, RED created an adjustable pl mount. A number of experienced cine people have questioned the wisdom of that, and I am not really experienced enough to weigh in on it, but I know that it changed things for Birger.

No matter how they did it they were going to have to make some sort of intermediate plate that would be shimmed to a proper depth (just as you would have to shim the 1st part of a P&S mount on a RED). At first he was going to modify some of what they had already created for their RED version mount, however more recently I think they realized that once they were forced to create an intermediate plate, instead of trimming the parts they had made for the RED, they might as well just abandon those and make the intermediate plate one that would allow them to use their standard 1.1" industrial mount - and not have double inventory.

I think they have to add an electronic component to their regular circuit board and the 4 pin lemo to allow it to draw power from the RED but basically all of his future smart mounts will have that whether for industrial/scientific or RED.

RED did not update Erik on the extent of the mount change, so he didn't find out about all of this until I sent him my camera a few weeks ago, and what he thought would be a one-day examination to confirm bolt hole configuration, take pictures of how to remove the PL and such, became a complete three week redesign of his RED version. And then an undesign to come to a slightly different design using their standard product.

As Jeff was saying, Erik had announced that since he was going to have to make the reference intermediate flange, he could also make other "dumb" mounts to match pretty easily and offered to make a Nikon mount for the guys that had ordered the Nikon "smart" mount but were going to have to wait a few months (the Birger EOS mount was created for industrial/scientific market long before the RED, but they were working on but had not finished a Nikon smart mount).

As Jeff mentioned, because of the intermediate plate, the Nikon, Leica, etc. dumb mounts would be easy to do and wouldn't require reshimming. The difference from P&S would be that you would need to use the four screws on the mount rather than the quick change bayonet of the P&S. The drawback of the P&S would be that - although you have access to all of those dumb/mechanical mounts - you don't have a smart mount option - and one of the big deals with the Birger mount is it uses the motors in the modern lenses for focus and iris and therefore with his encoder knobs also becomes a follow focus unit as well as a wired or wireless remote unit.

Birger has backed off of announced versions of dumb mounts, ostensibly to stay focused on getting the smart mount done, but there may be other reasons.

But here's the key that I found out from his website and from info I got from them when I first found out about the Birger a long time ago. Birger already sells dumb mounts setup to work with the same depth as the standard industrial/scientific smart mount so if you already have the plate on there with the new smart mount, you should be able to use those dumb mounts as well. Erik hasn't confirmed this, and I don't want to create any trouble - but I also can't see why they wouldn't work.

Even if he doesn't sell the one you want, it should be fairly easy to have made because the reference part is already on your camera; the hole pattern drawing for the industrial mount has been on his web site for years; and you already know the depth needed for the adapter (1.1 plus or minus the difference between your FFD and the EOS FFD of 44mm i.e. plus for the Nikon, Leica, etc and even a PL that wouldn't need to be adjusted. You could go minus for Canon FD, Aaton, FourThirds, etc.)

Finally, I don't know what lenses you have but for those that either don't have Nikon, or just want to use a few favorites - I recommend you go with the EOS version because since the EOS flange depth is substantially shorter than the others you can easily use Nikon, Leica, M42, C/Y, etc. with simple mechanical adapters - without even changing the mount. If you go Nikon, you can't use M42 or C/Y because FFD is shorter than Nikon - and a Leica adapter isn't really possible either because Leica is only .5mm longer so the adapter would be too thin.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Thanks for the great description, Aqua. . .

Geez, I just wish Erik would get this thing out the door. . . I'm really, really, really wanting to use his Canon mount!

Stephen

 

[paul engstrom]

Aqua Video,

You rock.

I've been watching the Birger mount develop for Red since way, way back. You're input has been extremely helpful.

cheers,
p

 

[Mark Pedersen]

"...Finally, I don't know what lenses you have but for those that either don't have Nikon, or just want to use a few favorites - I recommend you go with the EOS version because since the EOS flange depth is substantially shorter than the others you can easily use Nikon, Leica, M42, C/Y, etc. with simple mechanical adapters - without even changing the mount. If you go Nikon, you can't use M42 or C/Y because FFD is shorter than Nikon - and a Leica adapter isn't really possible either because Leica is only .5mm longer so the adapter would be too thin."[/QUOTE]

Aqua,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Not sure I followed all the nuances, but since the Canon is the shortest (not longest flange distance) it makes sense that the Birger smart mount for Canon would be the "base" unit on which you could add other adapters. With that in mind, the one adapter you don't list above is a PL.

So if I were to get the Birger Canon smart mount, would I be able to use a simple mechanical PL adapter, mount a PL lens and go on my merry way without having to shim anything?

Then if I want to use my nice EF 70-200mm F 2.8 IS USM lens, I could just pop off the PL adapter, mount the canon and use the wireless remote FF?

If so that would be SWEET. Especially if I wanted to do a crane shot or car mount and be able to pull focus.

To answer your questions about lenses, I own a set of Canon L glass for my 5D, a set of ZF still primes that I have been using for my Canon XLH1/mini-35 setup. I plan to buy a set of Ultra Primes for my Red, but it would be really nice to have the Canon option.

Let me know if the scenario above matches your understanding.

Sure would be nice if Birger learned how to communicate more effectively. Seems no one knows exactly what's happening. And until I see a clear product roadmap or know that it will indeed work, they won't be seeing a deposit from me

Cheers,

M

 

[Michael Hastings]

"...Finally, I don't know what lenses you have but for those that either don't have Nikon, or just want to use a few favorites - I recommend you go with the EOS version because since the EOS flange depth is substantially shorter than the others you can easily use Nikon, Leica, M42, C/Y, etc. with simple mechanical adapters - without even changing the mount. If you go Nikon, you can't use M42 or C/Y because FFD is shorter than Nikon - and a Leica adapter isn't really possible either because Leica is only .5mm longer so the adapter would be too thin."

Aqua,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Not sure I followed all the nuances, but since the Canon is the shortest (not longest flange distance) it makes sense that the Birger smart mount for Canon would be the "base" unit on which you could add other adapters. With that in mind, the one adapter you don't list above is a PL.

So if I were to get the Birger Canon smart mount, would I be able to use a simple mechanical PL adapter, mount a PL lens and go on my merry way without having to shim anything?

Then if I want to use my nice EF 70-200mm F 2.8 IS USM lens, I could just pop off the PL adapter, mount the canon and use the wireless remote FF?

If so that would be SWEET. Especially if I wanted to do a crane shot or car mount and be able to pull focus.

To answer your questions about lenses, I own a set of Canon L glass for my 5D, a set of ZF still primes that I have been using for my Canon XLH1/mini-35 setup. I plan to buy a set of Ultra Primes for my Red, but it would be really nice to have the Canon option.

Let me know if the scenario above matches your understanding.

Sure would be nice if Birger learned how to communicate more effectively. Seems no one knows exactly what's happening. And until I see a clear product roadmap or know that it will indeed work, they won't be seeing a deposit from me

Cheers,

M

Mark: As far as I know, it is possible to make a PL mount to fit onto the in between plate of the Birger and wouldn't need additional shimming. Basically your earlier point is correct - the in between plate we will get with the Birger can be the base for other mounts similar to what P&S is doing - the only difference is you will still need an allen wrench to swap rather than the P&S quick change bayonet.

MY understanding is that you could use any lens all the way down to a C mount (only 17.5mm FFD) in terms of Flange focal distance. I think he talked earlier about making a PL, but your point about wading through the other thread to find stuff getting to be troublesome is a valid one.