Big Change...

[Johan Malmsten]

Makes sense. Sounds good. But it's a step backwards to old-style film-centric production philosophies. A world where Avid has bins. What the hell's a "bin" (I know what a bin is, but the metaphor is meaningless to filmmakers growing up in the digital generation).

Hell.. I always thought of the "bins" as synonymous with folders... Almost like the thing that mac uses beach-balls and windows uses hourglasses. I need to investigate this further...

Red is part of the future, a future where kids cut movies on their laptops slouched on sofas, compositing gun shots and blood spats, color-correcting on magic bullet, whilst mixing in surround sound.

Why get someone else to do your fades and so on? Old-school makes sense, but not to the creative heart of the future spirit.

If the laptop in question actually has the power to do this... Then I have no objection to it. (And mixing surround sound with laptop speakers? you crazy man) But as of right now. I constantly look at all these sollutions with power that never gets used and redundant parts that I have to pay extra for. So I outlined this system with only the bare minimum to make it possible to actually do what you need in a NLE environment.

Yes, it's a giant leap backwards... but I feel that there's actually a lot to gain in terms of cost-efficiency for all of us that don't have the money to build a do-it-all uber-machine. It's a bit contradicting, opting for a separate machine to keep costs down. But I just can't help thinking it would be helpfull...

Of course I don't necessarily mean that you would have to give all the fun of compositing up to someone else... (I wouldn't)... just that there should be a machine especially tuned for it. You don't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail. Even if it's a swiss army knife and your name is macguyver... It's still more efficient.

I may dream about this system, but I realize that since the market is exceedingly small... no matter the actual costs of building it... the price would soar anyways.

Maybe a RED-iola with other virtual layers, like the kind of rack metaphors used in music production (made in bedrooms). Okay, I'm contradicting myself, but ain't that the wonder of it all. The sky is NOT the limit.

I-CHING: Understand the limits, but without any limitations.

But now I'm really off topic.....

Boundraries are meant to be crossed, rules are meant to be broken... I'm dreaming and I'm contradicting myself too. So I'll go back to speculating what the Dec 3rd announcement will be

PS/
I'm not opting for the outdated... if I did, I wouldn't keep refreshing these pages, eagerly awaiting new tidbits of info... if the new stuff works better, then I'll fully adopt it... I just wanted to point out something that get's overlooked in the craze for doitallubermachines... :biggrin:

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Apparently Canon cares more about the marketing than the customer, as windowing the frame to the center (best part of the optics) would likely yield a better image.

Sometimes I get the feeling some people don't get it at all. Invert your statement and you get closer to reality. Canon didn't market their sensation- they released it! They didn't use a fraction of the size of their FULL FORMAT sensor- they put it to use the best way they know how to, at the end of 2008, within certain parameters of price and so on.

Canon is giving this customer EXACTLY what he wants. And judging by the reaction, I'm not alone.

I'm buying a camera for $3500 that I can use for lots of stuff. Where do you think my 'movies' will end up? "In a theatre near you"?? I'll export to 720p and distribute my movies online via Vimeo or whatever for anyone to see/comment. I will showcase higher bitrate files on my laptop when I'm visiting friends and family.

It's the FORMAT (full frame SIZE) I want, not absolute quality. Of course I want that too, but I know I can't afford it.

I'll have what I need with Canon in two weeks. Taste that: 2 weeks.

I can pick up a 50mm f1.8 lens for like $300. You can taste that too if you like. Do you start see what I mean?

After the announcment of Scarlet I could't see who it was for. Much too expensive and not even full frame (disregarding for a moment that all versions are called Scarlet).

I mean.... either you ARE in business, and then you by the real stuff like Epic. Or you're NOT, like I am not. I buy consumer cameras (prosumer does not exist, only consumers with higher standards and more money), and they need to work out of the box and fall within a certain price limit. The Canon 5D mk2 is probably the upper limit. Above that is really professional.

So what is the Scarlet about? Increasing the margin for production companies through cheaper equipment?? I wouldn't have thought so initially.... I thought it was about bringing the joy and facination of REAL film making to guys like me, cutting the necessary corners to do so. It would hardly stain the RED brand to put almost professional equipment in the hands of enthusiasts. On the contrary. Video media and magazines wouldn't write about anythig else for the next two years.

I wouldn't be surprised if RED delivers down the line. I hope so and wish for it. But by then my not-yet-born child (Febrary) will probably be more than two years old, and I will have many happy memories, photos and movies with beautiful DOF that I have taken with a 5D mk2 and shared with family and friends.

People are unpacking their 5D mark II cameras with trembling fingers as I write this. They will discuss all kinds of possible things in other forums, as they live and learn and post their movies on Vimeo. In fact, I think I'll go there now and have a look. It's beautiful times and I can't wait to get mine.

Because that camera was made for ME!!

/Andrée

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Sometimes I get the feeling some people don't get it at all. Invert your statement and you get closer to reality. Canon didn't market their sensation- they released it! They didn't use a fraction of the size of their FULL FORMAT sensor- they put it to use the best way they know how to, at the end of 2008, within certain parameters of price and so on.

Canon is giving this customer EXACTLY what he wants. And judging by the reaction, I'm not alone.

I'm buying a camera for $3500 that I can use for lots of stuff. Where do you think my 'movies' will end up? "In a theatre near you"?? I'll export to 720p and distribute my movies online via Vimeo or whatever for anyone to see/comment. I will showcase higher bitrate files on my laptop when I'm visiting friends and family.

It's the FORMAT (full frame SIZE) I want, not absolute quality. Of course I want that too, but I know I can't afford it.

I'll have what I need with Canon in two weeks. Taste that: 2 weeks.

I can pick up a 50mm f1.8 lens for like $300. You can taste that too if you like. Do you start see what I mean?

After the announcment of Scarlet I could't see who it was for. Much too expensive and not even full frame (disregarding for a moment that all versions are called Scarlet).

I mean.... either you ARE in business, and then you by the real stuff like Epic. Or you're NOT, like I am not. I buy consumer cameras (prosumer does not exist, only consumers with higher standards and more money), and they need to work out of the box and fall within a certain price limit. The Canon 5D mk2 is probably the upper limit. Above that is really professional.

So what is the Scarlet about? Increasing the margin for production companies through cheaper equipment?? I wouldn't have thought so initially.... I thought it was about bringing the joy and facination of REAL film making to guys like me, cutting the necessary corners to do so. It would hardly stain the RED brand to put almost professional equipment in the hands of enthusiasts. On the contrary. Video media and magazines wouldn't write about anythig else for the next two years.

I wouldn't be surprised if RED delivers down the line. I hope so and wish for it. But by then my not-yet-born child (Febrary) will probably be more than two years old, and I will have many happy memories, photos and movies with beautiful DOF that I have taken with a 5D mk2 and shared with family and friends.

People are unpacking their 5D mark II cameras with trembling fingers as I write this. They will discuss all kinds of possible things in other forums, as they live and learn and post their movies on Vimeo. In fact, I think I'll go there now and have a look. It's beautiful times and I can't wait to get mine.

Because that camera was made for ME!!

/Andrée

i wish you all the best

 

[Milan Nikolic]

I know, I know - the wish lists are not invited. But, I would like realy that fixed lense 3K Scarlet has a auto focuss! It would be my ideal B camera along my R1 #1104.

 

[Scott Anderson]

I'm thankful Jim & company are on the case....working hard....pushing the whole industry forward. Amazing us time and time again.

Can't wait for the 3rd!

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

i wish you all the best

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Hopefully, it will be the start of a long learning curve of how to best handle 'manual mode movie making' and a few workarounds.

With a little luck RED releases an entry level movie camera, and then I'll be ready for it.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Jim, one question - if it doesn't reveal any production secrets - because I couldn't find anything about that yet and I'm really nosy how much manpower do you have at RED and are you really producing everything from sensor to lense under one roof at the same address without outsourcing? Because how else could you be able to jump from one revolution to the next in the matter of seconds...?

hmm ok it's really two questions... still amazed and glad that you were able to create your own personal playground and let us all borrow your bucket and shovel... hmm as I write this... it's more like you're actually selling your own set of buckets and shovels to the other kids at the sandpit...

 

[Emanuel A.]

I know, I know - the wish lists are not invited. But, I would like realy that fixed lense 3K Scarlet has a auto focuss! It would be my ideal B camera along my R1 #1104.

Same here. Without forgetting 6K FF35 on both, Scarlet beyond Epic.

EDIT -- New post.

 

[remoran]

Small Form Factor

Small Form Factor

The small form factor combined with SS memory will the way tech goes in the future. The Scarlets look very cool with the ability to shoot stills and video. One question I have is if they will accept Nikkor lenses as I have a large number of those that I would love to use.

Bob Moran

 

[Emanuel A.]

And sure... that:

So, my interest would be that Jim will allow the first 1,000 believers to use the $17,500 toward ANY of the cameras, not just for Epic. That way they can deliver the promises made if we get the most advanced Scarlet, and still have money left for the other neat accessories shown. That will be great sound to my ears!!!:bleh:

Again, same here.

Is it asking so much?

Thank you for posting.

 

[Raymond Adams]

Hi All,

This is my first post of this forum

Well this is an interesting time.
It would be interesting to see if RED will look at another new technology for storage...and memory. (thus workflow)

HP just showed off a new concept in memory..memistor.

It is memory that doesn't loose its date when power is turned off..it is also smaller, faster, and can be created in very dense (Gigs) with in the same space now for standard flash memory...

It is even thought that it might eliminate the need for hard drives and RAM on a system.

It would be interesting to have that kind of speed, storage, and low power usage on a RED camera system.

Hi Jim, it's been awhile since we met...good luck to you.

I'll be interested to see where you take things.

I hope that more people will also start to talk about the glass in front...that is of equal importance...if not more.

Cheers,

Ray Adams

 

[András Puiz]

Apple goes back to the drawing board all the time. I'm pretty sure they have the same discussions, fights, reasonable and unreasonable plans, frustrations, breakthroughs, epiphanies, etc. Only difference, they do it internally. And they also talk to a bunch of select people who sign big bad NDAs, not to an open forum.

The downside is, you don't get a dialog, and you need to trust the vision of a bunch of people to get everything right. They have quite a high success rate, though.

What's the upside? You get to go about minding your own business, till one day there's announcement from right out of the blue: "We've spent the last three years building this thing. It ships today."

Right now, we're all setting our sights on Q1, 2010... Some of us will actually try hybernating, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Clayton Harper]

So, my interest would be that Jim will allow the first 1,000 believers to use the $17,500 toward ANY of the cameras, not just for Epic. That way they can deliver the promises made if we get the most advanced Scarlet, and still have money left for the other neat accessories shown. That will be great sound to my ears!!!:bleh:

I really wish people would stop asking for shit like this. Allowing a trade-in for a superior and more expensive camera (Epic) allows Red to generate more revenue among a customer base that isn't really all that large in the scheme of things. Allowing a trade-in for a cheaper down-market product (Scarlet) causes them to LOSE money. Jannard is a businessman not Santa Claus. If you are making money from your Red One and many people are, trading up to Epic is a no-brainer. If you are still in the "red" on Red One you probably shouldn't be buying any extra camera gear until you make back the money. Red One will still be a superior camera to the Scarlet bodies when they release so get out there and shoot. :biggrin:

 

[David Dennis]

Jim, one question - if it doesn't reveal any production secrets - because I couldn't find anything about that yet and I'm really nosy how much manpower do you have at RED and are you really producing everything from sensor to lense under one roof at the same address without outsourcing? Because how else could you be able to jump from one revolution to the next in the matter of seconds...?

I don't think RED has many employees. All of them best in their field, but not many of them. The more employees you have, the harder it is to run a happy company because politics chews up even the best of us. Jim wants to make it fun to come to work, and by all accounts he has succeeded.

I'm pretty sure RED is following an Apple model - everything they have is designed in-house but manufacturing is outsourced to somewhere in Asia.

For everyone but Krell and Mark Levinson (which all make products starting at over $2,000 against the competition's crude versions for $200), manufacturing electronics in the USA is cost-prohibitive. Krell's customers like them being made in the USA and are willing to pay through the nose, but I don't see that as being much of a factor for RED customers, who need value.

It would be interesting to know all details but I'm pretty sure they are proprietary to RED and Jim, quite reasonably, doesn't want us to know.

After all, Sony may be listening ...

D

 

[Edmund Boyle]

Jesus Jim!

That about sums it up in two words!

 

[Raymond Adams]

HP just showed off a new concept in memory..memistor.

It is memory that doesn't loose its DATA when power is turned off..it is also smaller, faster, and can be created in very dense (Gigs) with in the same space now for standard flash memory...

Sorry for the typo...

Cheers,

Ray Adams

 

[Michael T O'Connor]

Hi All,

This is my first post of this forum

Well this is an interesting time.
It would be interesting to see if RED will look at another new technology for storage...and memory. (thus workflow)

HP just showed off a new concept in memory..memistor.

It is memory that doesn't loose its date when power is turned off..it is also smaller, faster, and can be created in very dense (Gigs) with in the same space now for standard flash memory...

It is even thought that it might eliminate the need for hard drives and RAM on a system.

It would be interesting to have that kind of speed, storage, and low power usage on a RED camera system.

Hi Jim, it's been awhile since we met...good luck to you.

I'll be interested to see where you take things.

I hope that more people will also start to talk about the glass in front...that is of equal importance...if not more.

Cheers,

Ray Adams

As much as I would like to see memistor, I highly doubt we'll see it. HP is a massive company with $$$ in R/D. RED, while a great company, doesn't have the money to put the require research into memistor to make it feasible. I suspect it'll take even HP >5 years to bring memstor to the market.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

It would be interesting to know all details but I'm pretty sure they are proprietary to RED and Jim, quite reasonably, doesn't want us to know.
D

Yeah, you're right. I wasn't looking for details ... it's mainly an overall interest. But it's true, it still was naive. whatever... I'm just glad they are doing it at all. can't await wednesday.

Thinking about what lies ahead of us, I'm already disappointed about all the "HiDef" stuff I've been working with. We equipped our university art department with HDV Cams about a year ago... "back then" Red One was looking great but not within reach for several units... and now I wish I could go shopping with the same budget all over again next year...

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce is mostly correct... we have been known to be late on occasion.

But Bruce's list needs a comment. /i technology is in the latest cameras and will be a part of the free upgrade we have now begun... as is the "clean" audio upgrade. There is a new REDCINE just about to be released and the Primes are coming....

YAAAAAY! Great to hear about all of this!

Do you think you could maybe get the REDCINE people into the whole "showing prerenders" thing too?

Like, along with all the renders of the new cameras, we can see a render of the upcoming REDCINE interface where you can zoom in and out of the damn timeline? Or reconnect media? Or a little button in the output window showing a normal Quicktime interface, where you can actually select DNxHD36 (the standard HD offline mode of the most popular film editing program)?

I would seriously be more excited about that than new camera info.

Announcing all of the cool camera stuff so early makes for a bit of a sad contrast in communication with the REDCINE page - when we post detailed bug reports on the REDCINE page and ask about simple features that are missing and should be in any telecine system and get silence.

Can you just clone yourself some extra Jannards to handle REDCINE RECON or or something?

What is missing from Bruce's list is all the things we have done in the last year that were NOT promised when our customers bought the camera. We have enabled a TON of features that were a surprise (and free). When looking at the whole RED experience, it is only fair that we all acknowledge things we did well and things we need to improve on. We are very comfortable that net result is favorable for a 1st camera effort. And we will continue to improve. You'll see...

Agreed, and I'm sure for 99.9999% of RED owners are jumping up and down with joy. Unfortunately I fall into the last tiny .0001%.

I personally did not need a single one of those features in my last Red project (indie short film).

If you gave me a choice between renting:
1. current Red One plus current post solutions
and
2. Soderbergh's beta Red One and an improved REDCINE (or native .R3D support, which would be in Avid now if you guys had opened the codec then)

...I would definitely go for the beta camera with improved REDCINE or an open .R3D file format.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Jesus Jim!

That about sums it up in two words!

Hahahaha.