Best PC Build Options?

[Richard Kynaston]

Afternoon all,
I've been wandering through the post-production hardware forum for a few days now. The organisation that I work for will be purchasing two Epic Dragons early in the New Year, which will be filming in 6KHD or 6KFF, for a year-long project. As part of this, i've been tasked with looking at the IT requirements - now i've not been around the PC field for about six years - the rest of our edit systems are all Mac, but one of the key requirements is handling R3Ds in either RCX or Premiere Pro CC as well and as quickly as possible. The ideal set up includes a double computer monitor edit system, and separate 'programme' output monitor. We are also in an unusual position, where the cost is not particularly a consideration! (I know, I was shocked too!)

Although the filming will be in 6KHD/6KFF (for a variety of reasons that I won't go into) likely hood is, the timeline editing (in Premiere Pro CC 2014) will be 4K - my aim is to get playback in 1/2 if not full resolution. I appreciate there is a vast amount of data being moved about in the latter. There will also be the requirement to pull full 6K single frames out of footage on a regular basis and export from RCX as TIFF.

Having read numerous posts on other peoples systems, I've come to the conclusion that we should forget AMD CPUs and go with Intel processors. I'm looking at a Gigabyte X99 UD7 WIFI motherboard, that gives us three x16 PCIe slots, and four x8 PCIe slots, a Turbo M.2 socket for OS SSD (480Gb Sandisk Extreme Pro), SATA Express sockets, eight DDR4 memory slots (192GB - 6xCrucial 32GB DDR PC4-17000 chips). HDDs would be WD Black 4TB in a RAID - basically as many as we can fit in the case - minimum of 12TB usable space. We'd also have a RRX card fitted - but would it be beneficial speed wise in RCX/Prem ProCC to have two? The above motherboard has a RAID controller on board, but would a separate RAID controller be fast/better?

So the big questions are:
1) is the above the right start, or am I on completely the wrong track?
2) what would be the recommendation on Graphics Card - I Was looking at the GTX Titan Z - but again i see some people have two, three or four graphics cards.
3) A lot of our output (aside from other resolutions: archive at 4K, delivery to HDCAM HD, Blu-ray HD and DVD SD) gets rendered into H.264 HD for preview to clients through Vimeo, so would a Matrox H.264 compressor card help?
4) Physical space isn't an issue, so my view is we could add something like a Cubix expander if required for additional PCIe slots.
5) Any recommendations on 27" computer monitors, plus a 4K video preview monitor (BM Smartview 4K any good)? Im thinking of a AJA Kona 4 I/O card, which would also connect into our HDCAM tape deck for broadcast output - although there is a resolution difference for monitoring 4K, between our 4K timeline and the BM UHD screen :-|

I know there's a lot of questions and queries there, but I'd appreciate any input from you guys - reading this most of you are far more knowledgable that me on this and Im not afraid to accept advice/criticism - although please do be nice if i've got it totally backside about elbow!

Thanks, in advance.

Richard

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, forget AMD CPUs.. Maybe someday they'll get it straightened out and provide more competitive options, as they have in the past, but they're just not the way to go right now.

As for the RAM, don't do the 32GB 2133MHz modules. Way too expensive. You'll spend $4K on RAM and that's just insane and overkill. 64GB is OK, but 128GB is perfectly fine, giving you 8GB per thread as one way to look at it. I would recommend 8GB modules at 2666MHz ~ 3200MHz or 16GB modules at 2400MHz (just coming out now). The quad-channel memory architecture means you need to install in sets of 4 anyway.

1> Yes, I think you're on the right track. Take a look at the ASUS X99 boards. They seem to have the most options and are getting the best reliability scores right now. They are also the only X99 boards out there with the option to add Thunderbolt connectivity, if you may be interested in some of that.

2> Avoid the Titan Z. It's two Titan GPUs on one card and all the software sees it as two separate GPUs. If you have the slots, you will get better performance with separate faster cards, like Titan Black cards, and at a lower price. 6GB Titan Black GPUs still provide the best all-around performance per dollar. GTX780Ti and GTX980 come close for CUDA performance if you can live with less RAM and some other trade-offs. There are 6GB 780Ti cards, but the trade-offs aren't worth the small amount of savings, IMO.

3> The Matrox card might help, but I'd be interested to see comparative benchmarks between it and what your CPU/GPUs can handle. I don't think the Matrox card is that powerful and it made more sense a couple years ago when it launched. Now, not so much. You also have to be sure that your software provides the support you want for that card, or whatever card you choose.

4> Don't mess with Cubix or other expanders. They're expensive and when it all comes down to it, you're trying to squeeze multiple cards into a single PCIe slot with this approach. Build another system and delegate apps, tasks, etc.. You'll get more for your money that way.

5> Monitors are a problem right now until the industry gets it all flowing with HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort 1.3. I would recommend a good 27" 2.5K IPS display or two -- LG, Samsung, Dell... Then get a nice 4K UHDTV or other preview monitor. Something with good calibration controls and the proper interface to connect to your I/O card. The AJA Kona 4 is nice, but it doesn't work with any of the BlackMagic software or fit in well with their new and screwing 6G and 12G SDI hardware. So you'll want to go with the solution that fits the majority of your software. AJA should have a quad-SDI to 4K HDMI 2.0 converter by the time NAB 2015 rolls around. Their current version of that converter works great, but it's only HDMI 1.4 capable with a 10Gbps throughput limitation.

So the big questions are:
1) is the above the right start, or am I on completely the wrong track?
2) what would be the recommendation on Graphics Card - I Was looking at the GTX Titan Z - but again i see some people have two, three or four graphics cards.
3) A lot of our output (aside from other resolutions: archive at 4K, delivery to HDCAM HD, Blu-ray HD and DVD SD) gets rendered into H.264 HD for preview to clients through Vimeo, so would a Matrox H.264 compressor card help?
4) Physical space isn't an issue, so my view is we could add something like a Cubix expander if required for additional PCIe slots.
5) Any recommendations on 27" computer monitors, plus a 4K video preview monitor (BM Smartview 4K any good)? Im thinking of a AJA Kona 4 I/O card, which would also connect into our HDCAM tape deck for broadcast output - although there is a resolution difference for monitoring 4K, between our 4K timeline and the BM UHD screen :-|

I know there's a lot of questions and queries there, but I'd appreciate any input from you guys - reading this most of you are far more knowledgable that me on this and Im not afraid to accept advice/criticism - although please do be nice if i've got it totally backside about elbow!

Thanks, in advance.

Richard

 

[Curt Pair]

I think it's great that Jeff weighed in... you just won't find a dude who knows more about computers, ANY computer than him! He is THE RESOURCE! That dude has forgotten more than I'll ever know...

I wanted to weigh in on something though... I have a Matrox MXO2 Rack Max. It's an I/O system that has the "Max" H.264 card built into it. I have to say, with all due respect... it ROCKS! It is MUCH faster, even today than just compressing with 'standard hardware and software' alone. I think you can get their card for something like $500 if you don't need the I/O capabilities of the MXO2 line up. I have the Matrox Mojito 4K card too. (It will be rad when they finally do a 4K Mojito Max card! (or just wishful thinking!))

I think the "Max" technology from Matrox is worth it! It speeds up our outputs tremendously, saving us time and making us more money! I don't think you'd be sorry you bought it.

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Jeff,
Many thanks for the detailed response. Pleasing to know I'm on the right lines, but good to get the input from someone who is more up to date on the all the PC stuff!

As for the RAM, don't do the 32GB 2133MHz modules. Way too expensive. You'll spend $4K on RAM and that's just insane and overkill. 64GB is OK, but 128GB is perfectly fine, giving you 8GB per thread as one way to look at it. I would recommend 8GB modules at 2666MHz ~ 3200MHz or 16GB modules at 2400MHz (just coming out now). The quad-channel memory architecture means you need to install in sets of 4 anyway.

Ah good thinking - yes i'll amend that to the 16GB 2400Mhz modules and go for 128GB. Ive never really thought about it, but just assumed more RAM means more memory for rendering in PP, i.e. its quicker, but reading your comments and those on other threats, I'm beginning to doubt that thought.

1> Yes, I think you're on the right track. Take a look at the ASUS X99 boards. They seem to have the most options and are getting the best reliability scores right now. They are also the only X99 boards out there with the option to add Thunderbolt connectivity, if you may be interested in some of that.

I'll take a look at the ASUS - Those Gigabyte X99 are Thunderbolt2 ready as well - one of the reasons i looked to them. They need an adapter board to give the Thunderbolt sockets, but like the ASUS can accept them.

3> The Matrox card might help, but I'd be interested to see comparative benchmarks between it and what your CPU/GPUs can handle. I don't think the Matrox card is that powerful and it made more sense a couple years ago when it launched. Now, not so much. You also have to be sure that your software provides the support you want for that card, or whatever card you choose.

4> Don't mess with Cubix or other expanders. They're expensive and when it all comes down to it, you're trying to squeeze multiple cards into a single PCIe slot with this approach. Build another system and delegate apps, tasks, etc.. You'll get more for your money that way.

Thanks thats interesting on both counts. Is the general feeling that two separate graphics cards (i.e. two GPUs) help out with RCX and PP Rendering/Exporting then? Im still a little lost with the technical aspects all of this - GPU seems to benefit some sides, while RRX benefits others ... is there any benefit to two RRX cards?

Thanks again for the help.

Richard

 

[Richard Kynaston]

I have a Matrox MXO2 Rack Max. It's an I/O system that has the "Max" H.264 card built into it. I have to say, with all due respect... it ROCKS! It is MUCH faster, even today than just compressing with 'standard hardware and software' alone. I think you can get their card for something like $500 if you don't need the I/O capabilities of the MXO2 line up. I have the Matrox Mojito 4K card too. I think the "Max" technology from Matrox is worth it! It speeds up our outputs tremendously, saving us time and making us more money! I don't think you'd be sorry you bought it.

Curt,
Thanks for the comments - I must say its a pleasure to say hello and also a thank you - your video on the Paglink batteries was a real eye-opener to me, and subsequently convinced the guys in the office to change over from a variety of makes when the renewal time came - we're all PagLink now! So thanks for that!

Interesting to hear your comments on the MXO2 Rack Max, i'll go take a look at that. Do you have to install any drivers or tell the Adobe software that its there to get it used for H.264 work? Im assuming it depends on a Thunderbolt connection? Although given the ASUS and Gigabyte motherboards both have that option, it shouldn't be an issue! Given Jeff's comments on software and interfacing with I/O connections for monitoring, how have you found the Mojito 4K card? Are you using the standard PP CC or Adobe Anywhere?

Cheers
Richard

 

[Eric Bowen]

The 32GB modules you listed are LRDIMM's which are basically similar to registered which also means limited to server boards for the most part.

I am still not aware of any 16GB unbuffered sticks out yet. There are 16GB Reg dimms but almost all of the X99 boards wont handle RDIMM's right now. Only the 1 Asrock board that i am ware of has support for those out of the X99 platform. Jeff what 16GB modules have you seen releasing?

The Matrox acceleration is normally 2 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio in time savings when I have tested though it's been a while since i last tested. The presets are included with the Matrox tools install for Adobe and show up under Matrox in the encoding options unless things have changed. If you do allot of H264 encoding then the acceleration is worth it. If not then it's not worth the slot. Also it depends on what software you going to use and whether you intend to get a Rocket X card. If you plan on the rocket card I would not suggest getting the Matrox card. Keep in mind Matrox does not always keep up with Adobe's update time frames and may often take a while to release an update to add support a Adobe version update. This has always frustrated many Matrox users. You are likely asking for trouble there in getting those to work well together. I am not aware of Gigabyte having their Thunderbolt cards yet also. Has anyone seen them released yet? I would also list the primary applications you are using for this project. That helps refine the best hardware config options.

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Hi Eric,

I am still not aware of any 16GB unbuffered sticks out yet. There are 16GB Reg dimms but almost all of the X99 boards wont handle RDIMM's right now. Only the 1 Asrock board that i am ware of has support for those out of the X99 platform. Jeff what 16GB modules have you seen releasing?

Pending a response from Jeff, what would your recommendation for memory be?

If you do allot of H264 encoding then the acceleration is worth it. If not then it's not worth the slot. Also it depends on what software you going to use and whether you intend to get a Rocket X card. If you plan on the rocket card I would not suggest getting the Matrox card. Keep in mind Matrox does not always keep up with Adobe's update time frames and may often take a while to release an update to add support a Adobe version update. This has always frustrated many Matrox users. You are likely asking for trouble there in getting those to work well together.

My proposal was to include a Rocket X card in the spec yes. I think Curt may well have hit on a second option, with the MXO2 Rack Max. It hadn't occurred to me when I started looking at this, but making it rack mountable, rather than a desktop system, could well be advantagous in saving clutter on the desktop. We have an edit desk that can have a 4U or 8U (can't quite remember which) rack added to it. EDIT: No scrap that idea!

I am not aware of Gigabyte having their Thunderbolt cards yet also. Has anyone seen them released yet?

I believe they are available - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-GA-X99-UD7-WIFI-motherboard-LGA2011-v3/dp/B00N5J2I5I - Amazon in the UK are showing that board in stock.

I would also list the primary applications you are using for this project. That helps refine the best hardware config options.

Thanks again, for your thoughts and suggestions. Primary applications are RedCine-X for dailies and also dealing with still frames, with primary editing being done using R3Ds in Premiere Pro CC 2014 on a HD or 4K timeline - for output to tape (HDCAM), 4K Archive Master, HD to Vimeo (H264) or Disc (Bluray), or SD (DVD).

Richard

 

[Eric Bowen]

Well 8GB is currently the highest density available for DDR4 Unbuffered sticks which are what you have to run for the most part with the X99 boards. That means 64GB of ram since those boards have 8 slots. Next year you will likely see 16GB unbuffered but I doubt this year since they require the higher grade chips for unbuffered.

The board does not include the Thunderbolt add in card. That is separate and as of now I dont see those available at Gigabyte yet. I am sure they will be available at some point but dont look to be yet.

What 4K archive master codec do you intend to use?

I would be careful about considering the MXO2 for monitoring. It doesnt support 4K resolution and Premiere normally only scales down the resolution via the video card though I thought I saw update notes where that might have been changed but cant remember. If not then Premiere requires the device to scale the frames if your in a 4K timeline and not previewing in 4K from an I/O device. You can monitor with the Rocket card in RCX. I would seriously consider Blackmagic for this though before you make a decision. They stay up to date with Adobe far better than the others and works with Resolve if you use that at some point.

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Eric,
Many thanks for the comments and useful insight - much appreciated. Im trying to find a similar ASUS motherboard to the Gigabyte X99-U7 WIFI, but struggling with their website at the moment! I hadn't realised the Gigabyte TB cards were not available yet - TB on PC seems to be a nightmare! I now realise why i've been firmly Mac for the past six years! May try and persuade people to go nMP yet! lol!

I'll need to check on the 4K archive codec, I know we were talking about the 4K version of Quicktime at one point, although that won't be any use on a PC system! I'll take another look at the BM Decklink cards based on your comments.

Thanks again!

Richard

 

[Curt Pair]

Curt,
Thanks for the comments - I must say its a pleasure to say hello and also a thank you - your video on the Paglink batteries was a real eye-opener to me, and subsequently convinced the guys in the office to change over from a variety of makes when the renewal time came - we're all PagLink now! So thanks for that!

Interesting to hear your comments on the MXO2 Rack Max, i'll go take a look at that. Do you have to install any drivers or tell the Adobe software that its there to get it used for H.264 work? Im assuming it depends on a Thunderbolt connection? Although given the ASUS and Gigabyte motherboards both have that option, it shouldn't be an issue! Given Jeff's comments on software and interfacing with I/O connections for monitoring, how have you found the Mojito 4K card? Are you using the standard PP CC or Adobe Anywhere?

Cheers
Richard

No problem on the batteries, mate! That was the intention to help others! That's why I do those reviews... I have several in the hopper right now too!

I've been using the Matrox systems since 2007. I started with an Axio. LOVED it... Grew out of it and into an MXO2. I initially got it because I could use it with a small PCIe card in the tower and an express 34 in my laptop... I could start a project in one place and finish it somewhere else! It is great! I'm a PC guy... I just got a Sager laptop with TB, so I'm excited about that... Matrox now makes a ton of stuff in TB, so that's great too... Or you can go the PCIe option.

I have the Mojito 4K and MXO2 installed but can only use one at a time! I'm trying to convince them to MAKE a Mojito 4K Max card (hint, hint, Matrox!) So I just uninstall drivers for one and install the other... kind a pain, but it works and only takes a few minutes to switch over. The Mojito is GREAT when working in F55/65 or C500. It really likes the XAVC format. I tried to get them to work with Red... but RDC already had their Rocket X, so it didn't make sense for Matrox. The COOL thing is the Max works WELL with Rocket/Rocket X too! So you can 'stack' the goodness on top of one another for FAST exports!

Once the Matrox software/drivers are installed, the "Max" outputs are listed in the Premiere Export section... so you don't really have to do much! Export like normal... but select "Matrox MP4..." and you're off and running! I hope that info helps you! Let me know if I can help further!

 

[Greg Barley]

I'll add another vote for the Matrox hardware. I had the CompressHD and moved up to the MXO2 LE Max a couple years ago (?). I can't get my hardware to even come close to its speed when rendering out .mp4 files from Premiere... especially if I have it set to "max render quality".

The only downside to Matrox (in my years of experience with them) is that 1) they can be very slow with driver updates / fixes, and 2) their support gets about a C- grade from me...

But the hardware encoders are awesome! Ha!

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Curt/Greg,
Thanks for both comments - how do you have your MXO2s connected to the PCs? As already commented by another contributor in this thread, there aren't many Desktop motherboards with Thunderbolt included yet?

Thanks for the feedback on the speed increases when rendering and exporting H.264 - thats very useful.

Richard

 

[Eric Bowen]

Thunderbolt runs the same whether on OSX or Windows so it's not a pain really. The last word I received is Intel requires royalty per Thunderbolt 2 port put on a system versus the controller chip. This forced many of the laptop and systemboard manufacturers to make a decision on whether they would include Thunderbolt as a standard I/O or not. HP, Asus, and now Gigabyte developed a better way to deal with it. Rather than pay royalty for every board produced whether the person needed Thunderbolt or not they decided to use the card system. This way they only pay royalty for those who need the ports via the cards. However getting the cards approved by Intel is another matter. They have very tight control on Thunderbolt approval right now and the cards have to be locked down to the solutions ie board manufacturers products. That means no 3rd party controller cards. Gigabyte obviously got approval at some point for their cards. Now it's just a matter of sourcing controller chips and building inventory.

The Asus Deluxe board is the closest equivalent to the Gigabyte board that is currently working with the TB cards. Right now I am working with Asus to resolve the Thunderbolt cards not working on the WS boards. Word I am getting so far is there should be a bios update fix relatively soon.

 

[Clayton Taylor]

Postscribing....

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Guys,
Having listened and taken the comments on board - as a general spec this is where i've come out ...
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/mC4nwP

Any further comments/suggestions?

Eric: Im getting a little lost, did you say the Thunderbolt adapter/add-on cards for the Asus Deluxe were available or not?

Richard

 

[Eric Bowen]

The Thunderbolt cards for Asus are available. The ones for Gigabyte are not. The cards work on the Asus X99 Deluxe board for sure. Still have to test a beta bios to see if that fixed them for the WS board.

 

[Richard Kynaston]

Thanks for the Eric, thats very useful.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Eric Bowen]

The Beta bios I have fixed the WS board and the cards. They have to be in slot 2 and the settings are a little different in the bios.

 

[Troy Smith]

The Beta bios I have fixed the WS board and the cards. They have to be in slot 2 and the settings are a little different in the bios.

Eric, has the WS board been improved stability wise for overclocking ram etc with the new bios updates?

 

[Eric Bowen]

Well the Beta bios has allowed me to set the ram to 2666 and has been stable so far. So that part is improved so far as well atleast with some of the ram.