Best low-budget field recording options?

[Tom Lowe]

I am going to be shooting a bunch of nature stuff on Red One and Epic X, and need to figure out audio. I will mostly be shooting rivers, meadows, beaches, forests, desert landscapes, etc. I have a Zoom H4N. It's a real handy little device, but there seems to be an underlying "hiss" I cannot get around. Would I be better off buying a mic and running it into the Red via a cable? I like to have the mic at least a few feet away from the camera, usually, so I am not listening to myself operating it.

What would you guys suggest in my case? I need to keep expenses way down, so please don't suggest anything too expensive.

Thanks!

 

[Andrew Gentle]

This probably isn't very helpful but did you know that the Zoom H4 is more quiet on the AC adapter than it is with batteries? Maybe it's the same with the H4N as well.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm confused... are you using the H4N's built in mics?

If so that's where your hiss is. Those mics are just not that great.

You can buy a mic and run that into the H4N directly.

You can also get good sound by running the mic right into the RED, but I've always had issues with the phantom power doing that.

So, if you want to record on the RED, then I recommend either getting a battery powered mic or using an external mixer.

Of course, you could get a mixer use a splitter on the output, run one set of cables into your zoom, and then hop to the RED.

 

[Michael Romano]

I think the direct connection to camera is Ok at best, not ideal. If you noticed a hiss on the Zoom, that you'll likely not be impressed with the direct input. I'd look at the other units in the form factor as that H4N. Sony makes a good one, the PCM-D50 for about $500, not too much more than that Zoom.

Even with a higher grade unit you should NOT use the built in mic, unless you have tested and are seriously happy with the sound. Depending on your focus, internal might work for just filler ambience. I think a good stereo mic is best though. I can suggest Rode or Sony (Sometimes) as a starting point within budget. Remember, what is most important is what it sounds like. All the specs and marketing in the world don't make a great recording. Trust your ears.

That being said...

There are a bunch of recorders listed here:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c1006--Portable_Recorders

Try eBay (Only new!) or other retailers like Musicians Friend, Sweetwater isn't always cheapest.

BTW - Stay away from the recorders that have integration with the iPod. I think that speaks for itself.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I think the direct connection to camera is Ok at best, not ideal. If you noticed a hiss on the Zoom, that you'll likely not be impressed with the direct input. I'd look at the other units in the form factor as that H4N. Sony makes a good one, the PCM-D50 for about $500, not too much more than that Zoom.

Even with a higher grade unit you should NOT use the built in mic, unless you have tested and are seriously happy with the sound. Depending on your focus, internal might work for just filler ambience. I think a good stereo mic is best though. I can suggest Rode or Sony (Sometimes) as a starting point within budget. Remember, what is most important is what it sounds like. All the specs and marketing in the world don't make a great recording. Trust your ears.

That being said...

There are a bunch of recorders listed here:
http://www.sweetwater.com/c1006--Portable_Recorders

Try eBay (Only new!) or other retailers like Musicians Friend, Sweetwater isn't always cheapest.

BTW - Stay away from the recorders that have integration with the iPod. I think that speaks for itself.

Is that $500 Sony one really much better than the Zoom H4N?

If I am mostly shooting ambient nature sounds, which mic would be a good one to plug into the Zoom?

Will the Zoom sound better than the Red itself? If they are the same, then wouldn't it be more convenient to run the mic into the Red, so I don't have to deal with syncing sound?

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Would I be better off buying a mic and running it into the Red via a cable?

Yes.

 

[Michael Romano]

Is that $500 Sony one really much better than the Zoom H4N?

I would say yes, but Brian might be right here on just plugging in. It depends on how complex you want this to become and where your financial cutoff point is.

Some basics for mic selection:
If you need ALL sounds in the vicinity, go with omni or cardioid mics. Be carful though, you may also get RED fan noise and sound from whenever you move about. To fix that or if you have an actual subject (Bird/Moose/Etc) I would get a shotgun, otherwise known as hypercardioid.

Take a look at Rode NTG series or Audio Technica for reasonable pricing. I prefer the Sennheiser 416, Schoeps MK41 or a pair of Nuemann's but these are really cost ($1K+) prohibitive.

Best luck!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Tom, sound is one of those areas that is very subjective. I've had clients who are perfectly happy with the sound recorded directly from microphone to the RED and others who wouldn't go that route under any circumstance. With a good microphone, you can get acceptable results from the onboard mic inputs on R1 (assuming you have newest audio board). However, if you are after very good sound, or perhaps great sound, then you will want to consider other options. Remember, it's not just about the quality of the recording device. Microphone quality, the powering of the microphone, the ability to mix/adjust levels on the fly, inline limiters, wind reduction, microphone mounting, etc. all contribute to achieving great sound. For nature recording, you'll want microphones with very low noise floors, as sometimes the recording environments can be quiet and you'll want a microphone that doesn't introduce noise into a recording like that. The Senheisser MKH800 is a gem for this kind of work. But as you'll see by the price tag, not in your budget. In terms of a nice stereo microphone, I have an Audio Technica 825 which is pretty good. It can be battery powered or phantom powered. Can be found for $250-$300.

I would suggest a combination of an affordable stereo microphone with a good two channel mixer that run line level into your Red. For example:
Sound Devices Mix Pre - http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mx2master.htm
Audio Technica AT 825 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414ba417f0

 

[Steve Sherrick]

And as Michael mentioned, if you need specific sounds that are to be recorded from a distance, a shotgun or parabolic might be necessary.

As you'll see, this can get out of hand quickly, just like photography/video equipment. It's a black hole that sucks up all of your money.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I like the coverage of the Zoom because you can switch from like 90-degrees (somewhat narrow and directional) to 120 degrees, which covers a cone more like a wide-angle lens. I want to be able to aim the mic, but still have it be fairly "wide" in its coverage.

Any specific suggestions under a grand? Would that Schoeps MK41 work for my needs?

 

[Tom Lowe]

For nature recording, you'll want microphones with very low noise floors, as sometimes the recording environments can be quiet and you'll want a microphone that doesn't introduce noise into a recording like that. The Senheisser MKH800 is a gem for this kind of work.

See, this is precisely my problem. I'm trying to get the sound of wind, or crickets at night in a desert, etc.... very quiet stuff. Any hissing noise kind of ruins it.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This is one to check out too.
http://www.trewaudio.com/PDF/sony_ecm_680s.pdf
It's under a grand and would give you stereo and shotgun in one package. I can't speak for the quality, but I have heard good things about it from people who have used one.

Ultimately, you'll need to test drive some of these options to find what works for you and meets your thresholds.

One thing I would highly recommend - a good pair of headphones with isolation. I use these. http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=255&cat=109&page=1

I would also recommend:
http://www.wildsanctuary.com/popv2/pop_field_recording.html
http://www.listeningearth.com.au/pages/Andrew.htm

 

[Milan Nikolic]

I am using TASCAM digital recorder (SD card) with two outside XLR mics. Results are good.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Tom,

did you check some of the information here:

Sound Recording Workshop 2010>>>

The Wildlife Sound Recording Society - Equipment >>>>

Nature recording Q&A >>>

Wildlife Sound Recording >>>

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

This is one to check out too.
http://www.trewaudio.com/PDF/sony_ecm_680s.pdf

I like the 680 too, but I haven't used one in a while, and never for something as critical as what you are up to.

I think that in this case you should definitely start with a mic into your Zoom and decide if that helped. I know the Zoom is better with a "real" mic, but I've again never tested it in an application as critical as yours.

Even if it doesn't satisfy you, then at least you'll be on your way to a better sound package.

 

[S_Miille]

Nature and ambience recording are some of the most demanding types of recording out there. As a sound editor, we have to deal with this stuff day in and day out.

If you are looking to shoot this type of work, and have the quality on par with your Red camera, then you should be willing to to use equipment on par with the quality of the red camera. It would be akin to going though great effort to use the best lenses, your Red One, then trying to light the whole scene with a lamp from your grandma's living room. A person can't skimp on this type of thing. Sound can not be an afterthought, and be expected to prove successful.

You have 2 options to do your shooting justice:
1 Pay to have a pro record when you go out, and rely on their talent.

2. Buy or better yet, rent the best you can afford. You'll be most happy this way.

Your Zoom Recorder is a very good little piece of equipment; I own one as well. But i use it as my 'carry arround everywhere to record what i might miss if i didn't have a recorder on me' type of device. It's great, but too noisy to be used for critical ambience type recording. For loud sounds that will mask it's inherently loud mics/preamps, it's quite adept.

If you choose to rent or buy, unless you are trying to record the sound of a specific 'spot' effect, (dialog, car doors, specific animals, and the like) go with a stereo mic, and not a shotgun or a hyper/super cardioid. Audio Techinica and Rode make great, reasonably priced models.

Another option, would be to record a simple guide track for reference, and hire a sound editor like me to put in some very well recorded sounds in post.

YMMV

 

[Tom Lowe]

S_Miile, thanks for the advice. We do have significant money set aside for sound editing in post, but what I was concerned about are unique sounds that might be tough to replicate, like waves crashing on a beach, rocks dropping in rivers, certain sounds that are tied directly to what is being shown on screen.

If I get a stereo mic (can you recommend a specific one?), can I run it straight into the Red? Rental is not really an option, since I will be out in the field shooting for 10 straight months. Also paying a location sound mixer is not an option.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

S_Miile, thanks for the advice. We do have significant money set aside for sound editing in post, but what I was concerned about are unique sounds that might be tough to replicate, like waves crashing on a beach, rocks dropping in rivers, certain sounds that are tied directly to what is being shown on screen.

If I get a stereo mic (can you recommend a specific one?), can I run it straight into the Red? Rental is not really an option, since I will be out in the field shooting for 10 straight months. Also paying a location sound mixer is not an option.

I would think about pushing some of the money to the front end if you have very specific sounds you need to get. A sound editor like S_Mille will probably be able to replicate your waves crashing, rock drops, etc. What they will have a hard time replicating is the ambience if there are lots of unique elements in it. Certainly they can go there and record them after the fact, but if you can get a lot of it done professionally at the time, it might actually save you money in the end. I agree with the camera analogy. We see some really bad RED footage sometimes, but we know the camera is capable of far better. Just need better lights, better placed, etc. Same with sound. The recording instruments need to be capable of clean, dynamic audio and you have to know where to place the mics. But if going to that extent is not possible, get the best you can afford (best meaning most appropriate for the type of recording you're doing) and do lots of testing.

 

[S_Miille]

I believe you can record stereo direct into the red. As I am not a 'camera guy' but a lowly sound guy, someone would have to give you the ins and outs. Just put left into channel one and right into channel two, then make sure that they are set equally, and not clipping. I would put the Sound Devices 2 channel pre amp into the camera if i could, or even the Shure model, if i could swing the extra cash.
As far as microphones, frankly, it depends on the budget. At the very low end of the price spectrum is the audio technica at8022 for about 300, which is a just fine mic, and more that capable. AT also has the BP4205 for about 600. also a nice mic, a bit quieter, and more rugged. then the Rode nt4, which really sounds great, but i have heard some get mics that needed returned, so listen to the one you will buy at the store. I really like this mic.
From there, shure makes the makes one, as does sennheiser, both in the 650 to 750 range. I'm a big fan of the Sennheiser mics.
All of the mics above, are single point 'X-Y'. These strike a middle ground, allowing you to both record large, wide ambience, as well as more pointed, single sound effects. Many might recommend some sort of dual mic spaced pair, or ORTF type configuration, i'd choose these type of mics for your situation. while i'll definatly agree that you can get superior sound from these configurations, they can be a pain to deal with, and take a lot of time to set up correctly. If you want to invest that kind of time and energy, by all means. But, i'm sure you have enough on your plate.

One thing that you must have is proper wind protection. this is an absolute must! I would make sure that you get both a blimp and a 'dead cat' fur cover. I can not say strongly enough how important this is. Rode makes a great, cost effective model. I think that rode is having a deal on the blimp right now.

and don't forget cables, and a good mic stand. (cameras make a lot of noise)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

As I mentioned earlier, I think the most cost effective way to go about this is to get the Sound Devices Mix Pre and the AT825 which will cost exactly $1,000. Add in Rycote wind protection and a good mount/stand and you are looking at about $1300-$1400. This gets you a solid 2 channel mixer with a fairly low noise mic that provides a nice Stereo track. At the very least you will have captured a nice base track, and in some cases it exceeds that base. I really think if you get too deep into this you are looking at a lot of money and you'll need a lot of practice to figure out how the various mic configurations (XY, MS Stereo, etc) respond, where to place them, what a good level is, etc. Not trying to discourage you from doing that, but it takes a lot of time/money. When I had the privilege of recording sound in and around Jack Kerouac's cabin in Big Sur for a documentary I wanted a whole spectrum of vantage points, sometimes wide, sometimes narrow, sometimes both. If I could do it all over again, I would have opted for some different mic choices, but still walked away with some good stuff. I would love to have had a pair of MKH800's that I could have used in an M-S Stereo scenario.

Check out this page, as he's got some samples for you to listen to using various configurations.

http://www.crypto.com/audio/soundscapes/