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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Best camera to use to match Arri Alexa?

I don't think you are going to have a problem matching Dragon footage to Alexa footage, even if the Dragon footage is spherical -- particularly if you are talking about inserts! After all, the recent "Star Trek" movies had a few scenes shot on Epics with spherical glass cut into a movie shot in 35mm anamorphic.

As for the Sony A7S vs. Dragon test on YouTube, it was rather confusing showing S-Log versus Dragon not converted to RedLogFilm, and comparing HD to 6K reduced to HD, etc.
 
Brian Merlen said:
I have an Amira I could try and cut you a deal on? But I think shooting spherical vs anamorphic is a bigger concern.. Also am I right assuming you originally shot on a 4/3 sensor? It wasn't Alexa classic, right? It was a 4/3 plus or studio or XT?
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I will get an Amira but I'm wondering how those licenses work. If you get a license, is it definitely linked to the camera even if you sell it? Or Does it disappear when you don't own the camera anymore and you can't add the price in the sale?
 
Eric M Hurt said:
I'd worry more about matching the dynamic range over matching the sensor size (DOF). Meaning I'd go for a 6k Dragon and fast lenses and shoot wide open to get the least DOF on the wider shots. Overall the dynamic rage difference between the Alexa and a DSLR would be a non-starter for me personally...
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Seriously ?
We match it all the time. ? Perfectly. .. Easy enough to pull RED back to match Alexa. Harder to do it the other way around. Alexa is sort of soft due to only being a HD camera (in PRORES mode) and if you shot in Prores it's even worse because it's baked. So Red 16bit raw 6k can easily give you more than you need to match Alexa.
Either your Colourist ( is useless ) or the post house your going through is not grading from actual RAW red files and your grading a transcoded color gamma baked codec. Meaning you've well and truly left RED land, and ended up in old school post world.
Don't believe in the Arri hype, Feature film visual effects demand RED. Why ?... More control. Far more.

Black magic camera is pretty much the same as alexa in LOG.
 
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Adrian Jebef said:
You'd be suprised.

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Oh my. That was apples vs apples .. Not !
Do a 6k output on a 4k projector side by side. Then you see the truth.
Click on RedLogfilm and see what shows up. way more info in all areas.
Did you try whip panning the A7s side to side. Hello jellow

The a7s is way better in low light. That is all.
oh and it's smaller and cheaper.
 
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Mark Toia said:
Seriously ?
We match it all the time. ? Perfectly. .. Easy enough to pull RED back to match Alexa. Harder to do it the other way around. Alexa is sort of soft due to only being a HD camera (in PRORES mode) and if you shot in Prores it's even worse because it's baked. So Red 16bit raw 6k can easily give you more than you need to match Alexa.
Either your Colourist ( is useless ) or the post house your going through is not grading from actual RAW red files and your grading a transcode color gamma baked codec. Meaning you've well and truly left RED land, and ended up in old school post world.
Don't believe in the Arri hype, Feature film visual effects demand RED. Why ?... More control. Far more.
Click to expand...


Mark, I was agreeing that matching Red to Alexa is the way to go.

I don't buy into the Arri fan boy hype OR the Red fan boy hype. I'm not blindly believing "Arri hype" I've worked with Alexa and know what it can do, same with Red. A camera is one tool in a tool box. If you have to match cameras then Dragon and Alexa can match great, mainly due to their large dynamic range IMO.
 
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David Mullen ASC said:
As for the Sony A7S vs. Dragon test on YouTube, it was rather confusing showing S-Log versus Dragon not converted to RedLogFilm, and comparing HD to 6K reduced to HD, etc.
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Agreed, I tend not to put much stock in side by side youtube tests in general due to the many variables.
 
Eric M Hurt said:
Mark, I was agreeing that matching Red to Alexa is the way to go.

I don't buy into the Arri fan boy hype OR the Red fan boy hype. I'm not blindly believing "Arri hype" I've worked with Alexa and know what it can do, same with Red. A camera is one tool in a tool box. If you have to match cameras then Dragon and Alexa can match great, mainly due to their large dynamic range IMO.
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Sorry man. :)
 
I'd look into the Sony F3 if budget is super tight. With a 10-bit ProRes recorder and SLOG it really is a 'baby' Alexa image-wise, and it avoids the moire and rolling shutter issues of the BMCC.

If the budget can stretch a little further, the F5 can be matched even more seamlessly to the Alexa, as there are LUTs designed specifically for it.
 
Your best best would be a Dragon (Epic or Scarlet). I'd steer clear of the A7 or the AF100 as both would have considerable matching issues (dynamic range, skew, FOV…). I would also use the lowest low con you're comfortable with. You can't undo the softening but you can enhance or add to it later. It will depend on the dynamic range in your shot/lighting.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I don't think you are going to have a problem matching Dragon footage to Alexa footage, even if the Dragon footage is spherical -- particularly if you are talking about inserts! After all, the recent "Star Trek" movies had a few scenes shot on Epics with spherical glass cut into a movie shot in 35mm anamorphic.
As for the Sony A7S vs. Dragon test on YouTube, it was rather confusing showing S-Log versus Dragon not converted to RedLogFilm, and comparing HD to 6K reduced to HD, etc.
Click to expand...

Yes we do this all the time, mixing Hawks with FD glas, on Alexa, dragon and also BMPCC with speed booster. Long sphericals and or closeups are used together with wider bigger shots on anamorphics it´s all fine. The BMPCC has narrower DR range of course but if the contrast ratio of the scenes are not in the extremes then it it´s normally fairly easy to match out the shots in the grading.

If you are worried you can always shoot a a 16 or 32 patch color chart and create a 3D lut for each lens / camera that match them out in terms of colors. The "lowcon" that everyone talks about in the alexa is very much neutralized by this process which to me pretty much proves that the lowcon feel of alexa is nothing but colorscience / the Clog is just differently mapped than redlogfilm. When that difference is sorted in a 3D warp the color tonality differnece of the two is seriously difficult to spot even if you "look far in between the pixels".

I also, just as David says, find all these camera tests people are doing quite annoying as most testers do not separate color science from the actual capture. For example, it does not make sense to shoot two cameras and then say one is more contrasty than the other, that is all color science and should be cross match before any comparison is made, especially if the cameras shoot raw. So to compare two setups they need to be color warped in 3D space to match each other by using a 64 or 32 color patch chart and a 16 bit float 3D lattice then dumped into ACES or such. Then when you grade the two images from there you can truly see what the difference is between the imagers. Any other way of testing is like comparing presets... saying one preset looks better than the other is like discussing taste, and says nothing or very little about what the cameras in question are capable of.
 
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