Best audio setup for Indies.

[PD1]

Hi,

I'm going to be working with an astute sound recordists/ engineer on an upcoming feature but he does not have his own field equipment I'm trying to ascertain what the best recording setup would be.

He suggested a PSC Alphamix as a mixer and a separate recorder. I am looking at some of the new digital recorders such as the Endirol R-44 or R-4 (time code).

I am thinking that the Endrol allows you to control mixing via the computer or even on the unit itself. Am I just not astute about field audio? Or is this a viable solution instead of the separate units?

Either way what solutions have given you the best performance in the field for features? And what is the most cost effective solution?

Any and all input is appreciated.

PD1

 

[Bruce Allen]

Sound Devices 702T worked like a charm for us in Japan on my indie short film.

Its noise levels are very very low, which means you don't have to be bang-on with your recording levels. Handy if you're spread thin crew-wise.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Florian Stadler]

A lot of soundmixers are going straight to Macbook Pro/Pro Tools these days...

 

[David CC Erickson]

I bought a Tascam HD-P2 which has worked fine for my small-time shoots. Sound Devices gear is awfully nice (702T, 744, 442, etc...) but costs a fortune and isn't always rentable, depending on where you are. I wouldn't get too fancy with the setup (a computer?) or too cheap on the components, and Roland gear (Edirol) has always seemed a bit flimsy and possessing poor interfaces. Of course my Tascam is made of plastic.

Here's a link where some people blab about the Sound Devices 442 vs. the PSC AlphaMix.

http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=86455

In my limited experience I've run audio through the XLRs on my camera and through the field recorder, giving me four tracks/mics to work with w/o a mixer. I hate the thought of sticking a mixer in there, just more potential for noise and tech difficulties. But if you gotta, you gotta. And you can always (and should) record ambient sound and effects later.

 

[Bruce Allen]

A lot of soundmixers are going straight to Macbook Pro/Pro Tools these days...

Interesting! Digi 003 console, 003 rack, 003 rack+ or Mbox 2 Pro? Would love to know the answer to that.

Wouldn't have worked in Japan because our mixer was our boom guy. But I own Pro Tools and was thinking of upgrading hardware for v8...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[martinnoweck]

sound devices products rock! downside: price ...

this summer we shot a red feature in the alps and our soundman had the "el-cheapo-indie-filmmaker-soundkit" - but it worked!

sounddevices 302 mixer / preamp
Zoom H4 audio to cf card recorder

if you want to go cheaper, just get the sounddevices mixpre.

instead of timecode we used the good old slate (which i would recommend using even if i had a timecode sync - you never know what happens with timecode on his way to the post - and if you are using the slate anyway you can easily get rid of the timecode hassle...)

regards,
martin

 

[martinnoweck]

Interesting! Digi 003 console, 003 rack, 003 rack+ or Mbox 2 Pro? Would love to know the answer to that.

Wouldn't have worked in Japan because our mixer was our boom guy. But I own Pro Tools and was thinking of upgrading hardware for v8...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

i second this question.

we used a mobile protools setup 5 years ago (mackie mixer connected to mbox connected to powerbook g3 pizmo, recording on external firewire drive) and it worked very well, but the sound department always had to depend on AC current.
so what are the options today? everything running on batteries now?

@bruce:
by the way, i still own a protools mix24 with adat bridge - we use it sometimes for small mixes or recording voice over - but since i have the kona3 now i thought this setup might be "obsolete" ;-) ... is there a way to use protools software only with 3rd party gear like aja?

regards,
martin

 

[Bruce Allen]

this summer we shot a red feature in the alps and our soundman had the "el-cheapo-indie-filmmaker-soundkit" - but it worked!

Nice!

instead of timecode we used the good old slate (which i would recommend using even if i had a timecode sync - you never know what happens with timecode on his way to the post - and if you are using the slate anyway you can easily get rid of the timecode hassle...)

Good heavens man, how much are you paying your editor?!? The 702T goes for under $2500 and can be sold used for over $2000. If your editor spent a week flipping burgers they could pay for it

@bruce:
by the way, i still own a protools mix24 with adat bridge - we use it sometimes for small mixes or recording voice over - but since i have the kona3 now i thought this setup might be "obsolete" ;-) ... is there a way to use protools software only with 3rd party gear like aja?

Happy memories! Sadly no, Pro Tools LE & HD only work with Pro Tools audio hardware. Pro Tools M-Powered only works with M-Audio stuff. Although they did just certify the Blackmagic HD cards for video playback with Pro Tools 8... But the new hardware's pretty cheap - eg MBox 2 Pro (the one with low latency and firewire) plus Pro Tools is $700 new and you can pick it up used for less.

Haha, this is funny, the one time on this board I'm telling people stuff is cheap. Normally I'm gasping in shock at $30,000 numbers being flung around with abandon!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[martinnoweck]

Haha, this is funny, the one time on this board I'm telling people stuff is cheap. Normally I'm gasping in shock at $30,000 numbers being flung around with abandon!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

hehe!

 

[PD1]

Thanks for the discussion. It is helping me loads.

Just looking at some of the stuff, I checked some sites etc. I'm thinking if I want to go to a computer based system, and run a pro tools based recording set up. With the Sound Devices (I just got it, SD) USBPre, that should do the job yes?

We're only running one camera, many of the shots in small spaces. Personally I don't see our company deviating from that sort of set up, and if we did we'd have the budget for it.

Am I way off base here?

 

[PD1]

I just have to add to this, would this mean that we could be virtually wireless with the USB connection?

 

[Tom Visser]

A lot of soundmixers are going straight to Macbook Pro/Pro Tools these days...

This is not my experience. Maybe it is more common for ADR or actual sound stages, but for field production, I don't see too many people setting up laptops. I would find the cumbersome aspects of a computer based rig annoying, both as a mixer and as the other crew who had to work with someone doing that. It might be more appropriate in a cart based setup, but then we're talking indy, here, right, so its definitely limited to over the shoulder / baggable kits.

302 302 302 302 302 302 302 302

you can't go wrong with this mixer. I own much more expensive and complicated mixers/recorders, and I still get a lot of pleasure out of working with the reliable and dependable Sound Devices 302.

Focus on the mic. You probably don't really need more than 1 mic. If you have a Sennheiser MKH 416, great, if not, it seems like the Rode NTG-3 is the best bang for the buck. I like lavs, I use them a lot, but they are almost always a simple backup for my boom'd mic. In most instances, they are a luxury. Indies can't afford luxuries, so don't feel bad about skipping them if you have to. Nothing says that you have to have wireless lavs, either. Run the cable down the shirt or even pant leg and plug an XLR cable into their shoes/socks if you have to. Wireless is the luxury of not asking permission to handle the opposite sex talent, being able to setup/down in under 30 seconds, etc...

With a 302 hung on your chest, you should only need 1 audio crew member, as they can easily boom and mix by themselves. I can do a boom mic and 2 wireless lavs with my 302 and also use the monitor return for another wireless hop (302 can actually handle up to 5 channels, not just 3), such as from the announcer's booth at sporting events, music feeds, etc...

If money is really tight, get a nice used boom pole, probably aluminum and thread a Zoom H2 on there. No fuss, no cables, and it is dirt cheap. What you lack in absolute quality and gain control, you make up for in simplicity. You might be surprised by the performance of the H2, and it even does simultaneous 4 ch 360 degree recording for ambience.

 

[Tom Visser]

...and just wanted to add, what camera are you using? Some cameras actually have decent on board audio, while others are almost unusable. Canon XH cams seem pretty good. (older) Canon XL series seems pretty bad. Outboard recorders are great, they outperform most all onboard audio on a camera, but it does add complexity to the post process and also raises the danger of loosing your audio entirely if something catastrophic were to happen to the media (or competency of the operator was an issue).

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thanks for the discussion. It is helping me loads.

Just looking at some of the stuff, I checked some sites etc. I'm thinking if I want to go to a computer based system, and run a pro tools based recording set up. With the Sound Devices (I just got it, SD) USBPre, that should do the job yes?

Wouldn't work with Pro Tools. But Logic or Nuendo should work. Pro Tools would need Digidesign hardware (which you can get very cheaply).

We're only running one camera, many of the shots in small spaces. Personally I don't see our company deviating from that sort of set up, and if we did we'd have the budget for it.

Am I way off base here?

Talk to your sound guy. I wouldn't like to have a gigantic cart with laptop etc in a small space, but maybe if it were a little Tablet PC or something? How do you even record timecode with a USBPre?

I've said I prefer a small Sound Devices recorder for small stuff, location work, cramped spaces, etc. But the idea of recording to pro tools right on set is very appealing for larger stuff.

I just have to add to this, would this mean that we could be virtually wireless with the USB connection?

?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[PD1]

Talk to your sound guy. I wouldn't like to have a gigantic cart with laptop etc in a small space, but maybe if it were a little Tablet PC or something? How do you even record timecode with a USBPre?[/COLOR]

I've said I prefer a small Sound Devices recorder for small stuff, location work, cramped spaces, etc. But the idea of recording to pro tools right on set is very appealing for larger stuff.

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The whole crew wont be in small spaces, just probably a close by room and he'll have a boom op etc.

I'm just trying to simplify the process, it's gonna end up in a computer anyway. I'm just trying to understand the need to purchase both the mixer and recorder. That is a good question about time code. I will have to investigate further.

Anyone else please feel free.

PD1

 

[Jason Ing]

Will Red One's upcoming audio board upgrade take care of everything? Can I just get a mic, boom, and record directly to Red One?

 

[Jim Hoffman]

You could use a MBP and BoomRecorder software with an interface like a MOTU. But you're tied to AC.

 

[PD1]

The digidesign products seem to be edging out at the moment. Any users care to comment?

 

[Shawn Nelson]

A good setup for indies is straight to camera via a SD302.

 

[Tom Visser]

Will Red One's upcoming audio board upgrade take care of everything? Can I just get a mic, boom, and record directly to Red One?

The RED audio board upgrade addresses two major issue, plus a couple of minor ones.

The big ones...

1) the headroom on the audio circuits was limited, so it was easily overdriven, necessitating a -10dB pad from most mixers' outputs.

2) when phantom power was active, noise was introduced.

So the board will fix those issues, but it doesn't get around the fact that a mic hooked up directly to a camera is not the best setup. Theoretically, you could set and forget levels and get decent results. In the real world, however, a second set of (experienced hands and ears) will help greatly as you can effectively ride gain levels as appropriate for the situation and when dealing with multiple mics, actually get a mix in real time. This means that using an external mixer (like the recommended SD302) will usually beat out a directly connected mic.