Best audio setup for Indies.

[Caesar]

The RED audio board upgrade addresses two major issue, plus a couple of minor ones.

The big ones...

1) the headroom on the audio circuits was limited, so it was easily overdriven, necessitating a -10dB pad from most mixers' outputs.

2) when phantom power was active, noise was introduced.

So the board will fix those issues, but it doesn't get around the fact that a mic hooked up directly to a camera is not the best setup.

I didn't understand exactly. This is already fixed with the new audio board or not yet?

 

[Keith Nealy]

I don't recommend the laptop, unless for cart only

I don't recommend the laptop, unless for cart only

If your sound guy has any field experience, he will probably not agree with the laptop idea.

I have the Edirol R4pro - which is great - but it doesn't work to well as a mixer if you want to run the audio to camera as well, as the outputs are only unbalanced -10 db outs..

My basic setup is Sound Devices 442 mixer with 4-channels of audio which can feed the Edirol R4pro 4-channels of audio and the camera 4-channels of audio as well as time code jam sync. I have a special snake cable with a quick disconnect and a headphone return between the camera and the mixer so I can hear what the camera is hearing.

A Sennheiser boom with a full zeppelin and two lectrosonic wireless mics as well as an assortment of various mics and wired lavs and I'm good to go. All this in wearable cases and a backpack for mobility. (8-10K)

As nice as a laptop sounds, unless you're going cart only - fugettaboutit.

The gear I speced is tough and is built for the job. You get what you pay for and if your sound gear breaks - you're MOS and SOL.

aloha,

Keith

 

[PD1]

If your sound guy has any field experience, he will probably not agree with the laptop idea.

I have the Edirol R4pro - which is great - but it doesn't work to well as a mixer if you want to run the audio to camera as well, as the outputs are only unbalanced -10 db outs..

My basic setup is Sound Devices 442 mixer with 4-channels of audio which can feed the Edirol R4pro 4-channels of audio and the camera 4-channels of audio as well as time code jam sync. I have a special snake cable with a quick disconnect and a headphone return between the camera and the mixer so I can hear what the camera is hearing.

A Sennheiser boom with a full zeppelin and two lectrosonic wireless mics as well as an assortment of various mics and wired lavs and I'm good to go. All this in wearable cases and a backpack for mobility. (8-10K)

As nice as a laptop sounds, unless you're going cart only - fugettaboutit.

The gear I speced is tough and is built for the job. You get what you pay for and if your sound gear breaks - you're MOS and SOL.

aloha,

Keith

Thanks a lot, this does sound like a doable set up, I was hoping to keep the budget at under 7.5K but it does fall into what my guy was talking about... he did add a few perks, but who wouldn't?

I was thinking about the mobility factor as well, then it came to me that shooting with the Red we will most likely have a DI station. That's be the only way to monitor levels, playback for me the Director. I imagine this basically takes the place of Video Assist on a film set. Given that, can't an audio recording station be set up at the same local?

Some scenes will require a more run and gun approach, but for the most part, scenes are interiors/ on location.

Given that, would that effect your approach?

Oh yeah, the option of going straight to camera is out of the question, I'm still kinda old school. We'll use that for dallies, but not for a master.

Thanks much.

PD1

 

[Tarek S. Kandil]

There's a nifty little device made by M-Audio called the microtrack. They've issued a new one the micro track II but that one doesn't have any XLR inputs. This thing can sample up to 96kHz which is good enough for any independent audio work.

I find this piece really useful for recording, i've conviced the film dept at a university here to replace their DAT machines with them.

You board can be sent to the machine, but its tiny, and capable and has massive storage space. Strongly recommended.

Save the laptop for later. Some good planning and you can really save space.

The rest is up to your mic choice for each application.

What end result are you looking for and how linear do you want to get w your audio? do you want to capture as much material as you want and edit later? or are you an analog-natured audio head...

Ppl will say do your editing later its more efficient and makes sense but i've found that limiting your capabilities in conjunction with your objective can really make a difference in results.

Let me know if you need anything as far as audio help talk etc, very into audio for over 15 yrs now, new to film that's why i'm here.

Cheers

T

 

[PD1]

Thanks all!

Okay so I've discarded the Lap top idea.

What I'm looking at so far is.

1. Sound devices 302 Mixer $1,300.00
Sound devices 702T Recorder $2,500.00 OR 702 $2,000.00

2. Edirol R4 pro Recorder $2,000.00
Sound Devices 442- Mixer $2,500.00 OR 302. $1,300.00

3. PSC Alphamix Mixer $2,000.00 (What he recommended)
+ 702T OR 702?

Price difference of $3,500.00 to $4,500.00

The extra channel may well be worth the $1,000.00 extra. But I still have to get mics and all other accessories. Notwithstanding I doubt the 4th channel would come into play. At least not for this shoot.

If I were to go for the 302 and needed extra inputs channels, what would you guys recommend? A whole new unit, a smaller less expensive unit, that can also be used as a back up?

I just checked out the Mixpre @ under $700.00, maybe that coupled with the 302 could make sense???

I think one of the reasons the sound dude wants as many inputs as possible is because we was intending on shooting ambient sound on a separate channel while shooting, someone mentioned that this should not be done. Recommendations?

Again, forgive my ignorance, I'm used to being behind the camera or calling the shots.

Mic options so far: Mic.
Sennhiser MKH-416 $1,100.00
Neumann KMR82I $1,600.00 (His recommendation)

Add to that Lavs, wireless and wired etc.

Will check out the M-audio microtrack as well. Thx.

Thanks much once again for the info.

PD1

 

[Mark Phelan]

Are you set on needing to record using a dual system? The Red records sound very well using either the new or old sound board, which would save you from having to buy a separate recorder. We've been using the Sound Devices 442 direct into the camera with no problems at all. For mobility, I've used the Sound Devices MM1 for a line out signal since I still have the old board in my camera. You could then put the money into some good mics or lavs if you are still needing them. Just a thought.

 

[Tom Visser]

I didn't understand exactly. This is already fixed with the new audio board or not yet?

The new board fixes the known issues.

 

[Tom Visser]

Thanks all!

Okay so I've discarded the Lap top idea.

What I'm looking at so far is.
Recommendations?...
...
Mic options so far: Mic.
Sennhiser MKH-416 $1,100.00
Neumann KMR82I $1,600.00 (His recommendation)

Add to that Lavs, wireless and wired etc.
...

I'd probably go with the MKH-416. Its a workhorse and given your budget, there's good reason to save your dough for the other necessities.

I've always thought of wireless lavs as more of a backup to a boom. Sennheiser makes a very cheap kit that has a transmitter, receiver, the mic, all cables you need (even batteries) for about $500-$600 or so. Two of these plus a custom cable would give you the option to go into the "monitor return" on the 302 in the event that you needed up to 3 wired mics + the 2 wireless lavs. I normally mix the lavs to the right channel as instruct the editor to only use the right for safety and then mix the primary channel to the left, normally a boom(s). 95% of the time it will be a single boom and 2 lavs, in which case you can just go XLR into all 3 inputs. In about 30 seconds, you can reconfigure your harness to go from the default setup with 1+2 XLRXLRXLR or add 2 more boom ops for 3+2 XLRXLRXLRminimini, and all you really need to do is to flip the LCR switch for the 2 new mics over to Left, instead of Right.

The other option, as a safety, maybe you can just connect the wireless lavs direct to channels 3&4 on the camera and not even bother routing them through your mixer. Then you can just concentrate on your primary mix with wired mics through the 302. Keep good logs so you don't confuse the editor.

Going direct to the RED camera is actually ok despite the bad rep that early units had. If you are using the old audio board, you just need to pad the output of the mixer -10dB, sacrificing a moderate amount of head room / fidelity. The new board, if performance is as promised, should be absolutely ok for recording to. Make sure you use betacam breakaway cables, this allows the camera crew to quickly disconnect from the mixer's umbilical in under 5 seconds to prevent independent crews from stepping on each other or slowing each other down. I like second audio a lot, but if your budget is constrained, recording to the camera is a viable option. (also be aware of proper time code jamming characteristics of the camera if you do decide to use 2nd audio)

 

[PD1]

Are you set on needing to record using a dual system? The Red records sound very well using either the new or old sound board, which would save you from having to buy a separate recorder. We've been using the Sound Devices 442 direct into the camera with no problems at all. For mobility, I've used the Sound Devices MM1 for a line out signal since I still have the old board in my camera. You could then put the money into some good mics or lavs if you are still needing them. Just a thought.

It'll probably make sense to state that I reside and will be working in the Caribbean. So my plan is for multiple backups. I'm sure I'll have a great time with the camera team coming in from LA, but I don't think the budget will allow for them to come back if the are any issues. So the objective is also to back-up everything 2- 3 times, on the set, with an array or hard drives.

So whatever works, has to work, and be backed up.

PD1

 

[PD1]

I'd probably go with the MKH-416. Its a workhorse and given your budget, there's good reason to save your dough for the other necessities.

I've always thought of wireless lavs as more of a backup to a boom. Sennheiser makes a very cheap kit that has a transmitter, receiver, the mic, all cables you need (even batteries) for about $500-$600 or so. Two of these plus a custom cable would give you the option to go into the "monitor return" on the 302 in the event that you needed up to 3 wired mics + the 2 wireless lavs. I normally mix the lavs to the right channel as instruct the editor to only use the right for safety and then mix the primary channel to the left, normally a boom(s). 95% of the time it will be a single boom and 2 lavs, in which case you can just go XLR into all 3 inputs. In about 30 seconds, you can reconfigure your harness to go from the default setup with 1+2 XLRXLRXLR or add 2 more boom ops for 3+2 XLRXLRXLRminimini, and all you really need to do is to flip the LCR switch for the 2 new mics over to Left, instead of Right.

The other option, as a safety, maybe you can just connect the wireless lavs direct to channels 3&4 on the camera and not even bother routing them through your mixer. Then you can just concentrate on your primary mix with wired mics through the 302. Keep good logs so you don't confuse the editor.

Now see this language I understand. The gear... you lose me. I will definitely have the camera set up one way or another to take audio. I'll be working with some....let say, first time actors who can do with some work on articulation, so these set ups actually make a lot of sense to me. Don't know what audio board the camera I'll be using has, I'll have to ask. But I gather for interior and close exterior shots this is a GREAT way to ensure we are catching great audio and have backups .The rest we use the boom..... and the team can watch my anxiety grow until everything checks out... once the gear is good and reliable, good adapters and cables cold probably do wonders and give me the backups I need. Thanks for the advice and the tips.

If anyone has any magic they've used in the field, please chime in. I'll have the convo with the audio guy and I'll compare notes.

PD1

 

[Florian Stadler]

I thought by Indie set-up you meant and Independent feature motion picture. A lot of the recommendations are for EFP/Documentary/GonzoGorilla type of shooting where indeed there would be no sound cart and no high end audio back up. I have yet to see an indie feature above 300K to not have a sound cart and a seperate boom operator. You won't be able to deal with 6-10 wireless, an ambient boom and a directional boom with a mixer strapped around your neck.

I have no personal experience recording sound but had a lenghty conversation with an L.A. sound mixer that owns 3 carts and just had 2 of the 3 converted to MBP/Pro Tools from a Diva setup.

I'd be happy to pass on the information of the sound man in PM.

 

[PD1]

I thought by Indie set-up you meant and Independent feature motion picture. A lot of the recommendations are for EFP/Documentary/GonzoGorilla type of shooting where indeed there would be no sound cart and no high end audio back up. I have yet to see an indie feature above 300K to not have a sound cart and a seperate boom operator. You won't be able to deal with 6-10 wireless, an ambient boom and a directional boom with a mixer strapped around your neck.

I have no personal experience recording sound but had a lenghty conversation with an L.A. sound mixer that owns 3 carts and just had 2 of the 3 converted to MBP/Pro Tools from a Diva setup.

I'd be happy to pass on the information of the sound man in PM.

This was my original thinking when I was thinking of the computer set up. But I understand the need for mobility. But yes, we will have a separate boom op. AT least that's what was discussed...

This was my primary concern with the need to get both the recorder and mixer and which combo would be best etc. My eyes have been opened, but with cart/ station, what are the recommendations?

Pls. PM info. it would be appreciated. I have to make a decision really soon, notwithstanding work out with the sound guy the best solution to make us both comfortable. Thx

 

[PD1]

As a stationary unit I am looking at these:

Digidesign 003 $1,200.00
Mbox 2 (backup) $450.00


Or the Mfire2626. Prices aren't bad.

Any thoughts?

This will probably also include a mixer: SD 442 or Alalphamix

We will probably have a mobile unit as described by some in this post, but we can probably go a little less robust with the system (recording that is). Thanks for that guys! At least I know what I need to be looking for.

But if you had an inexpensive versatile rack system?????

 

[Tom Visser]

Both of those Digi units have pretty poor preamps. Whether or not they are useable really depends on your criteria, but absolute signal to noise ratio is easily bested by the typical battery operated pres on professional location units. The analog to digital conversion is adequate for cinema and TV, passable for music, but not exactly high end either.

If you insist on going the PT path, go ahead and use the 003, but get nicer pres and converters and use the ADAT input for up to 8 channels... or invest in a PTHD rig. I think this is overkill, as we're really looking at simple tracking. No FX, monitors, or mixing really needs to be done. Ultimately I think you would be better served by a dedicated field recorder / mixer. Some units even have enough flexibility to competently do both at the same time, such as the channel limited Aaton Cantar X2 with the control surface (albeit super expensive) or the Sound Devices 788t with the CL-10 mixing interface / 2 track mixdown unit.

There are lots of non Avid / Digi hardware interface options, at least look into them and decide if they fit into your budget, for the branded IO boxes are all a bit pedestrian in their absolute performance.

I get the sense that your allowing your problem to be more complex than it needs to be. Take a step back and decide what you need mic wise. Get that nailed down first. After that, evaluate the back end hardware.

As a stationary unit I am looking at these:

Digidesign 003 $1,200.00
Mbox 2 (backup) $450.00


Or the Mfire2626. Prices aren't bad.

Any thoughts?

This will probably also include a mixer: SD 442 or Alalphamix

We will probably have a mobile unit as described by some in this post, but we can probably go a little less robust with the system (recording that is). Thanks for that guys! At least I know what I need to be looking for.

But if you had an inexpensive versatile rack system?????

 

[PD1]

Apparently not an appropriate solution. My bad....

I'll stick to one of these or any combination therof.


Sound devices 302 Mixer $1,300.00
Sound devices 702T Recorder $2,500.00 OR 702 $2,000.00

2. Edirol R4 pro Recorder $2,000.00
Sound Devices 442- Mixer $2,500.00 OR 302. $1,300.00

3. PSC Alphamix Mixer $2,000.00 (What he recommended)
+ 702T OR 702?

Price difference of $3,500.00 to $4,500.00

Thanks all for the advice!

PD1

 

[PD1]

Both of those Digi units have pretty poor preamps. Whether or not they are useable really depends on your criteria, but absolute signal to noise ratio is easily bested by the typical battery operated pres on professional location units. The analog to digital conversion is adequate for cinema and TV, passable for music, but not exactly high end either.

If you insist on going the PT path, go ahead and use the 003, but get nicer pres and converters and use the ADAT input for up to 8 channels... or invest in a PTHD rig. I think this is overkill, as we're really looking at simple tracking. No FX, monitors, or mixing really needs to be done. Ultimately I think you would be better served by a dedicated field recorder / mixer. Some units even have enough flexibility to competently do both at the same time, such as the channel limited Aaton Cantar X2 with the control surface (albeit super expensive) or the Sound Devices 788t with the CL-10 mixing interface / 2 track mixdown unit.

There are lots of non Avid / Digi hardware interface options, at least look into them and decide if they fit into your budget, for the branded IO boxes are all a bit pedestrian in their absolute performance.

I get the sense that your allowing your problem to be more complex than it needs to be. Take a step back and decide what you need mic wise. Get that nailed down first. After that, evaluate the back end hardware.

Just saw this. You're right, I'm doing exactly what I tell people not to do... over think the situation.

Yeah, back to basics. (Just posted)

I should have spent this half of the day, looking at lav mics...

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Buy great gear and you cry once. Buy "okay" gear and you cry every day.

Mixer/recorder. . . look for a used SD744T (GREAT unit. . . I have the 8 channel version. . . the 788T) or a 722 or 702. Great sound and not too much money.

Microphones. . . look for a used Schoeps CMC541 or CMC641 (CMC5 or CMC6 amp) and an MK41 capsule. Put a Rycote or other quality windscreen on it and get a fine boom pool, and you're ready to rock. If you plan to be outdoors most of the time, pick up a Schoeps CMIT-5U microphone instead. About $500 more than the 416, but worth it.

Yes, this will cost you more, but not that much more, and it is all Hollywood standard gear.

Stephen

 

[Tom Visser]

I'd be interested in hearing about what mics you decide to go with. The type and quantity of mics that you will be using is probably the second most important decision you will make (the first is who will be using them - and they should probably have lots of input if they are experienced). Once we know that, we can probably give you some more focussed advice rather than shooting in the dark.

 

[Brian J.M. Rytel]

I have yet to see an indie feature above 300K to not have a sound cart and a seperate boom operator. You won't be able to deal with 6-10 wireless, an ambient boom and a directional boom with a mixer strapped around your neck.

Initially I thought this is what you meant too, you can see a quick response for a laptop system here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22446

I like to go direct to a recorder when doing over-the shoulder run-gun shoots. Despite annoying quirks, the Fostex FR2 (pro one, not the cheap LE) is handy, I've used it on a couple of university projects when the fact that they had a 'sound guy' was amazing to begin with.

I really like a computer work with, but some recorders will let you do either computer-based or field recording (Cantar) and that probably the 'synergy' point if you need to go from one style of production to another quickly.

 

[Brian J.M. Rytel]

...The type and quantity of mics that you will be using is probably the second most decision you will make (the first is who will be using them - and they should probably have lots of input if they are experienced). Once we know that, we can probably give you some more focussed advice rather than shooting in the dark.

For a microphone choice, I agree somewhat. I really don't see the need for a Schoeps or Neumann mics for 'run and gun'. The 416 is a solid choice, and you can get them used (if that is ok with you) for ~$500. If your boom op is likely to leave the mics in the sun/heat or isn't go with following dialogue clues, you might look at something even more replaceable.

The lavs seem like a good choice, do your homework before buying them and try to get transmitter packs that you can plug any mic into (with an adapter) in case you ever need a boom op to wander, or cables get to be a problem.