Benefits of shooting 8K / Epic-W

[Raphael Maier]

Hey guys!

I'm very interested in your opinion and experience.
What are the benefits of shooting in 8K (especially with the new Epic beast) compared to 4K or even 2k?
And which "extras" do I get when I'm shooting with the new Epic? What are the not-so-good things about it?

I'm also hoping for some feedback from "heavy users".


Thanks for your time! :lurk5:

 

[Owen Rennie]

Have you read any of the other threads in here? I think you can answer your own question with a little reading

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Benefits of shooting 8k go beyond the headline resolution figure. 8k gives you better MTF at all frequencies, so you get a better representation of contrast which is visible even after downsampling. 8k means you get smoother more natural representation of details because you're much more likely to be oversampling that detail. Because many people will be downsampling the 8k to 2k or 4k you'll get lower noise still, and the noise character of the Helium sensor is very friendly.

Graeme

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Benefits of shooting 8k go beyond the headline resolution figure. 8k gives you better MTF at all frequencies, so you get a better representation of contrast which is visible even after downsampling. 8k means you get smoother more natural representation of details because you're much more likely to be oversampling that detail. Because many people will be downsampling the 8k to 2k or 4k you'll get lower noise still, and the noise character of the Helium sensor is very friendly.

Graeme

This post should be put in the front page of Red.com

 

[Michael Hastings]

Benefits of shooting 8k go beyond the headline resolution figure. 8k gives you better MTF at all frequencies, so you get a better representation of contrast which is visible even after downsampling. 8k means you get smoother more natural representation of details because you're much more likely to be oversampling that detail. Because many people will be downsampling the 8k to 2k or 4k you'll get lower noise still, and the noise character of the Helium sensor is very friendly.

Graeme

How is this affected when downscaling to 4K or 2K proves in camera? Any significant drawbacks?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I've not tried that, so I can't speak from experience. For my work I'm always looking at the R3D.

Graeme

 

[Ketch Rossi]

While not a scientific affirmation,

It is my believe thru what I see by naked eye on my 4k monitor that while using an 8k sensor Weapon Dragon VV & Weapon Helium 8k (stormtrooper) images shot @8k will appear cleaner then images shot @4k, when this are seen at the same 4k resolution size.

My take on this is that RED does not allow the capture of the entire area of the sensor but in a 4k instead of an 8k resolution, so you are using a smaller area of the sensor when capturing anything less then full 8k, and for this you don't get the full potential of the 8k sensor.

However I see a clear difference form Dragon to Helium sensor, where to my eye the Helium sensor is the winner.


The only reason I see any one shooting less then 8k, would be for higher frame rates needs and storage concerns, all else is irrelevant, as once you have an 8k master R3D you can get any other possible imaginable size to work with, even with lesser computer systems.


Of course my eyes might not be telling the all story here, as it would be reasonable to think that since the sensor is getting such results in the 8k full surface, it will also get the same results, or similar at lower resolutions, as it is using yes less of the sensor, but still from the same sensor, but again, to my eyes it is not so, hence I will shoot 8k as much as possible to then down sample to what ever I need.

If I need higher frame rates, that is a different story, and to me the only reason why I would if forced to, shoot at lower then 8k resolution, but I intend to do a very well controlled test of shooting 8k at maximum allowed frame rate, and then shoot 5k (to get 4k out, 5k is the absolute lowest resolution I would ever shoot at) at higher frame rate allowed, both with what ever minimum compression allowed, and then I will bring the 8k shot material up in post (slow down) to the same frame rate of the 5k material, and see which one looks best.

This will give me a better idea of what to do in those times when I do need Slow Motion footage.

Oh, and of course for me, since I shoot a lot for Stills extraction, there is just no other best benefit then that fro shooting 8k, as you then get to use the full 35mp's of the sensors for your Prints...

 

[Jacob Ryan]

Hi Ketch,

When you shoot motion with stills extraction in mind, do you approach the shutter setting as you would a still camera? How often do you find yourself needing a lot of extra light for what you do?

While not a scientific affirmation,

It is my believe thru what I see by naked eye on my 4k monitor that while using an 8k sensor Weapon Dragon VV & Weapon Helium 8k (stormtrooper) images shot @8k will appear cleaner then images shot @4k, when this are seen at the same 4k resolution size.

My take on this is that RED does not allow the capture of the entire area of the sensor but in a 4k instead of an 8k resolution, so you are using a smaller area of the sensor when capturing anything less then full 8k, and for this you don't get the full potential of the 8k sensor.

However I see a clear difference form Dragon to Helium sensor, where to my eye the Helium sensor is the winner.


The only reason I see any one shooting less then 8k, would be for higher frame rates needs and storage concerns, all else is irrelevant, as once you have an 8k master R3D you can get any other possible imaginable size to work with, even with lesser computer systems.


Of course my eyes might not be telling the all story here, as it would be reasonable to think that since the sensor is getting such results in the 8k full surface, it will also get the same results, or similar at lower resolutions, as it is using yes less of the sensor, but still from the same sensor, but again, to my eyes it is not so, hence I will shoot 8k as much as possible to then down sample to what ever I need.

If I need higher frame rates, that is a different story, and to me the only reason why I would if forced to, shoot at lower then 8k resolution, but I intend to do a very well controlled test of shooting 8k at maximum allowed frame rate, and then shoot 5k (to get 4k out, 5k is the absolute lowest resolution I would ever shoot at) at higher frame rate allowed, both with what ever minimum compression allowed, and then I will bring the 8k shot material up in post (slow down) to the same frame rate of the 5k material, and see which one looks best.

This will give me a better idea of what to do in those times when I do need Slow Motion footage.

Oh, and of course for me, since I shoot a lot for Stills extraction, there is just no other best benefit then that fro shooting 8k, as you then get to use the full 35mp's of the sensors for your Prints...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Doing my best Ketch impression ;-)

Doing my best Ketch impression ;-)

I'm not Ketch, but when pulling stills is on the agenda I definitely consider shutter angle/speed. If the camera and subject aren't moving too much then a 90° (1/96) shutter at 24fps base rate can make a nice compromise that doesn't make the motion footage too "choppy" and keeps the motion blur on the stills under control. Another option is to really thin the shutter, say 22.5° (1/384) at 24fps, to really tighten up the stills - then use optical flow software to add motion blur back in digitally during post.

In terms of slow motion (over crank) capture I've had better results in most cases when adding interpolated frames to cleaner footage, vs higher fps, more compressed and windowed footy. There are certainly exceptions to that, and faster write speeds (300MB/s on CF Weapon) help keep the compression ratios on in camera over crank from impacting the IQ as much. As usual - test, test, test...

Cheers - #19

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hi Ketch,

When you shoot motion with stills extraction in mind, do you approach the shutter setting as you would a still camera? How often do you find yourself needing a lot of extra light for what you do?

Hi Jacob,

Yes absolutely so.

However there are different considerations that must be carefully analyzed prior any given shoot, and this go for Subject Speed and intended final look, to the obvious as Blair stated where "IF" you are shooting for both a nice Motion material such as in Fashion Films and or any other type of Commercial work for which both the Motion piece and Still Frames are required, then yes a 90˚ Angle (1/96) Shutter is a very good compromise indeed, where you get cleaner edges on the Stills yet maintain a bit of that cinematic tailing blur for your Motion clip.


However if the subject is a fast moving one, and or there is wind moving your Model's dress and Hair and you are looking for a Still extraction priority then you'll want nothing less then a 1/500 Shutter which means you set the camera at 18˚ Angle, and this while giving you a very "Video" like clean Motion Clip, which btw in some instances it is actually extremely pleasing to the eye as it maintains all detail even on the edges nice and crisp and there is no Blur telling your frames, but on the Still extraction you'll get fantastically Crisp and Sharp images edge to edge (lenses choice taken in consideration of course).

I have been experiencing a lot in the past years, and while much is not available publicly, I am now in the works of a Huge project called 8kVentuRED, and for this I'll shoot some material with the Still Extraction in Priority, and I also intend to bring about a nice comprehensive Video of the workflow with either the Weapon VV or the Helium 8k, or both and compare the results we'll see.

As far as lighting goes, same thing applies here as in Still Photography, the higher your shutter speed the more light you need, in a similar but very different way as shooting higher frame rates will require more lighting.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Benefits of shooting 8k go beyond the headline resolution figure. 8k gives you better MTF at all frequencies, so you get a better representation of contrast which is visible even after downsampling. 8k means you get smoother more natural representation of details because you're much more likely to be oversampling that detail. Because many people will be downsampling the 8k to 2k or 4k you'll get lower noise still, and the noise character of the Helium sensor is very friendly. Graeme

Graeme's note speaks directly to the "why do we need 8K?" issue that will often be cited by cost conscious producers (are there any other kind ;-0). The short response is that you need the supersampling to overcome the Bayer pattern "penalty". Most camera systems do a great deal of signal processing "enhancement" to hide Bayer artifacts and increase perceived sharpness. RED, tip of the hat to Graeme, has chosen to let the image author decide how much sharpening/contrast/etc is best for a particular shot.

Starting at 8K for UHD/4K should virtually eliminate the need to "enhance" one aspect of the image - perceived sharpness - at the expense of subtle image dynamics that help add nuance to the scene/story.

Cheers - #19

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Basically, detail and noise related, you get a more natural looking imagery because digital quantization goes way into subliminal.

In bits and pixels.
Both factors being far superior to currently accessible display technology.

 

[Jacob Ryan]

Wow. Thanks Ketch and Blair.

Always very knowledgable and generous. so glad we have you here.

Hi Jacob,

Yes absolutely so.

However there are different considerations that must be carefully analyzed prior any given shoot, and this go for Subject Speed and intended final look, to the obvious as Blair stated where "IF" you are shooting for both a nice Motion material such as in Fashion Films and or any other type of Commercial work for which both the Motion piece and Still Frames are required, then yes a 90˚ Angle (1/96) Shutter is a very good compromise indeed, where you get cleaner edges on the Stills yet maintain a bit of that cinematic tailing blur for your Motion clip.


However if the subject is a fast moving one, and or there is wind moving your Model's dress and Hair and you are looking for a Still extraction priority then you'll want nothing less then a 1/500 Shutter which means you set the camera at 18˚ Angle, and this while giving you a very "Video" like clean Motion Clip, which btw in some instances it is actually extremely pleasing to the eye as it maintains all detail even on the edges nice and crisp and there is no Blur telling your frames, but on the Still extraction you'll get fantastically Crisp and Sharp images edge to edge (lenses choice taken in consideration of course).

I have been experiencing a lot in the past years, and while much is not available publicly, I am now in the works of a Huge project called 8kVentuRED, and for this I'll shoot some material with the Still Extraction in Priority, and I also intend to bring about a nice comprehensive Video of the workflow with either the Weapon VV or the Helium 8k, or both and compare the results we'll see.

As far as lighting goes, same thing applies here as in Still Photography, the higher your shutter speed the more light you need, in a similar but very different way as shooting higher frame rates will require more lighting.

 

[Dan Kanes]

You know what works for good stills + motion (sometimes)

Video as normal, use HDRX, set to tighter shutter (retain more highlights) - as long as your noise floor for shadow areas isn't too dark for you to lift you'll still have normal motion in your A track and tight shutter in your X track.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Wow. Thanks Ketch and Blair.

Always very knowledgable and generous. so glad we have you here.

My pleasure Jacob!

And be sure to register to attend the Workshop by clicking the Yellow event on my signature, we'll have a very detail workshop on shooting Video for Stills...

You know what works for good stills + motion (sometimes)

Video as normal, use HDRX, set to tighter shutter (retain more highlights) - as long as your noise floor for shadow areas isn't too dark for you to lift you'll still have normal motion in your A track and tight shutter in your X track.

Yes that too has worked well Dan,

But if and when Stills are actually a priority over Video then a dedicated shoot for stills on camera settings works best.

 

[Brian Anderson]

Benefits of shooting 8k go beyond the headline resolution figure. 8k gives you better MTF at all frequencies, so you get a better representation of contrast which is visible even after downsampling. 8k means you get smoother more natural representation of details because you're much more likely to be oversampling that detail. Because many people will be downsampling the 8k to 2k or 4k you'll get lower noise still, and the noise character of the Helium sensor is very friendly.

Graeme

Hey Graeme, whats MTF? Could you give a little more detail on this?

EDIT: after a little research... modulation transfer function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_transfer_function

 

[Björn Benckert]

We are right now testing Helium VS weapon for a long format 10 episode thing. They shot cooke pancro so it´s 5kFF weapon vs 7kFF helium. The producers where worried that data rates would go up. But as I see it that does not really have to be true. Due to a few things. I got some testing and some assumptions in the mix here so please correct me if I´m wrong.

1. The two cameras at the given resolutions give a very similar sensor size.
2. Both cameras max out at 300Mb/s so when shooting in the dark or such then lowest compression on both gives the same data rates. In other words helium can not produce more data then weapon can.
3. To even out the data rates helium at 7k FF needs double the compression ratio as dragon with 5kFF (same sensor size). So if you decide to shoot. 5:1 on dragon you need to shoot 10:1 on helium or higher not to create more data.

Now, first though is that 10:1 can not look better than 5:1... But that is an assumption you need to double check because to my finding, helium 10:1 does just that, it looks better than dragon 5:1 when both are down sampled to UHD.

I´m guessing it´s due to a few things.

1. Part of the compression is non destructive, simply the files are packed kind of like a zip file. Also the destructive compression is noise sensitive and resolution sensitive. So as helium is actually cleaner and got more pixels those things is in favor for helium.
2. The more you down sample the better, going from 5k to UHD is not really a good downsample, it is an improvement but not by a lot. Going from 7k to UHD is a lot, its not an 8k 4:1 which is excellent, 4 pixels becomes one is super. But 7K to UHD is close to that domain. So also the down sampling is very much in heliums favor.

So with the above, My conclusion is that you can actually shoot helium with less data than dragon and still have a far nicer UHD finish. Even though it is quite difficult to convince the producers.


Then to make it even more difficult to grasp... When in real bad light etc. Then shooting 4k 422HQ from helium saves a ton of space and if you got your settings right the prores file that comes out of it is super clean and don't weight that much... And it will always be better than that 422HQ 4k quicktime that you can eak out of a weapon. again due to the above, helium got bigger down sample going.


Then the producers get to the next point... But how about post? it will take so much space, slow renders etc. But no it does not take more space if you stay in raw or downsample to UHD, when in UHD the files are just as small or quick as the once coming from weapon. Sure there is one render that will take slightly longer but not much and that is the render when you swap from proxy mode and set to full 8k and render to UHD but that render you only do once and it´s actually not that much slower than 6k renders. Simply the files does not weight more than 6k files and sure there is a bigger canvas etc but it does not really make that much difference. This 8k stuff is not like when we jumped from HD to 4k capture, then there where no tools that worked well with proxies mode etc now resolve, premiere and all the others can really handle their stuff first in 4:1 resolution or such, and then final render 1:1 straight to your destination resolution, and again that only happens once so no big deal not even for 10x 1 hour things.

 

[Curren Sheldon]

Thanks for all of these thoughts Bjorn! Definitely helped clear up some thoughts for me.

Is the 4K and 2K ProRes downsampling from the full 8K sensor? So, would it be the same sharpness/resolution as shooting 8k and downsampling to 4K in post? Obviously you give up some of the RAW workflow capabilities, but curious to see how well the 4K ProRes works.

We are right now testing Helium VS weapon for a long format 10 episode thing. They shot cooke pancro so it´s 5kFF weapon vs 7kFF helium. The producers where worried that data rates would go up. But as I see it that does not really have to be true. Due to a few things. I got some testing and some assumptions in the mix here so please correct me if I´m wrong.

1. The two cameras at the given resolutions give a very similar sensor size.
2. Both cameras max out at 300Mb/s so when shooting in the dark or such then lowest compression on both gives the same data rates. In other words helium can not produce more data then weapon can.
3. To even out the data rates helium at 7k FF needs double the compression ratio as dragon with 5kFF (same sensor size). So if you decide to shoot. 5:1 on dragon you need to shoot 10:1 on helium or higher not to create more data.

Now, first though is that 10:1 can not look better than 5:1... But that is an assumption you need to double check because to my finding, helium 10:1 does just that, it looks better than dragon 5:1 when both are down sampled to UHD.

I´m guessing it´s due to a few things.

1. Part of the compression is non destructive, simply the files are packed kind of like a zip file. Also the destructive compression is noise sensitive and resolution sensitive. So as helium is actually cleaner and got more pixels those things is in favor for helium.
2. The more you down sample the better, going from 5k to UHD is not really a good downsample, it is an improvement but not by a lot. Going from 7k to UHD is a lot, its not an 8k 4:1 which is excellent, 4 pixels becomes one is super. But 7K to UHD is close to that domain. So also the down sampling is very much in heliums favor.

So with the above, My conclusion is that you can actually shoot helium with less data than dragon and still have a far nicer UHD finish. Even though it is quite difficult to convince the producers.


Then to make it even more difficult to grasp... When in real bad light etc. Then shooting 4k 422HQ from helium saves a ton of space and if you got your settings right the prores file that comes out of it is super clean and don't weight that much... And it will always be better than that 422HQ 4k quicktime that you can eak out of a weapon. again due to the above, helium got bigger down sample going.


Then the producers get to the next point... But how about post? it will take so much space, slow renders etc. But no it does not take more space if you stay in raw or downsample to UHD, when in UHD the files are just as small or quick as the once coming from weapon. Sure there is one render that will take slightly longer but not much and that is the render when you swap from proxy mode and set to full 8k and render to UHD but that render you only do once and it´s actually not that much slower than 6k renders. Simply the files does not weight more than 6k files and sure there is a bigger canvas etc but it does not really make that much difference. This 8k stuff is not like when we jumped from HD to 4k capture, then there where no tools that worked well with proxies mode etc now resolve, premiere and all the others can really handle their stuff first in 4:1 resolution or such, and then final render 1:1 straight to your destination resolution, and again that only happens once so no big deal not even for 10x 1 hour things.

 

[Raphael Maier]

Thank you for your thoughts and opinons - appreciate that! If you want to - keep them coming

 

[Gene Sung]

Seems like Helium owners are rating the sensor at 2000 iso vs. 800 iso for Dragon with Standard OLPF.

Is the better low light a result of the Helium sensor engineered to be more sensitive or is it because an 8K image downscaled to 2K hides / makes the grain smaller?

So let's say on Helium I choose to shoot in 4K for whatever reason vs. shooting in 4K on my Scarlet-W, will I still get better low light on Helium because it's a more sensitive sensor? Or will the noise be the same since since there are no larger resolution downscaling benefits?