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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Beginners... shoot f8

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Paolo Tinari said:
This post amazes me. I'm costantly looking for shallow dof and now the camera manufacturers advice me it's better i close the iris till i tame the beast.
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UR right That's sound a bit scary, maybe I should go back in the second league and buy a prosumer camcorder. Héhé
 
Jannard said:
If you are new to shooting a full frame 35mm format, you WILL find focusing a challenge. Just as everyone has said. You have a few options. Use Graeme's Magic Focus invention. Or hire a focus puller. Or shoot lots of takes.
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And how to check those recorded takes in the field to make sure you hit critical focus, with nothing on hand to monitor, except the camera's own EVF/LCD?

Here's my idea... Graeme's Magic Focus to the rescue... for PLAYBACK...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18531&postcount=41
 
Jannard said:
We are having so much fun shooting our prototypes. It is a blast. Right now, the favorite is "Natasha" who has the most upgrades and features enabled. "Boris" is in the lab trying to catch up.
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Prototypes with Russian names... :huh:..... company name is RED........ Jim, you're lucky McCarthy isn't around anymore:wink:
 
Graeme's Magic Focus Device will be the choice that makes this easier to deal with... shooting f8 was a bit tongue in cheek as it is often tough to find that much light on a set, but you get the idea. The newcomer to this size format just needs to learn that there is a problem AND there are lots of options to help solve it... did I forget a tape measure or laser rangefinder?

Jim
 
Paolo Tinari said:
This post amazes me. I'm costantly looking for shallow dof and now the camera manufacturers advice me it's better i close the iris till i tame the beast.
Click to expand...

Shallow DOF gets a lot of attention, but almost every production of any genre, whether it is cine-style or EFP style, requires a broad range of DOF in shots. Establishing shots and panoramas need deep DOF, medium shots use a lot of medium DOF, and close-ups generally use shallow DOF. Being able to achieve whatever DOF a shot demands is the mark of a professional shooter - whether they are shooting cine-style or EFP style.

Let's consider four more factors:

1) In terms of comparative number of professional productions worldwide each year, the large majority are electronic field production (EFP) - a significantly higher overall number than cine-style productions, including features.

2) I'd suggest that RED One, though obviously designed as a digital cinema camera system, is also designed to be accessorized for extensive EFP production use, and that the ratio of production style use of RED One will reflect the usage noted in #1 above – much more EFP style than cine style.

3) The majority of EFP productions are well lit, in fact shot in outdoor available light, thus apertures between f5.6 and f11 are the norm. F8 is probably the most common aperture for that genre of shooting. Medium to deep DOF is sought for those types of programs and an aperture of f8 achieves that.

4) At apertures of between f5.6 and f11, in tandem with Graeme’s Magic Focus assist, experienced solo shooters should be able to rack their own focus. With practice, beginners will too.

The wider open the aperture, the shallower the DOF, and thus the more difficult critical focus becomes. At wide-open apertures, AC’s and focus pullers will be used extensively. Experienced solo shooters, shooting at wide-open apertures, should still be able to rack focus for more static shots on sticks, but any focus on moving subjects will be extremely tricky (as in nearly impossible) without using a focus puller – and even tricky when using one.

I think Jim’s suggestion of beginners using f8 is a real good suggestion. DOF is medium at f8, thus allowing beginners to get used to RED One before they start opening up the iris for more shallow DOF shots. Expert shooters seeking shallow DOF will obviously be able to work with a wide-open aperture immediately – the workflow will be very familiar to them. Jim is a veteran cinematographer. His f8 advice for beginners with RED One is very good advice indeed. I expect Graeme’s Magic Focus assist to be a key feature of RED One. In tandem with the 720p EVF and WSVGA LCD, I expect the Magic Focus to enable accurate focus. We’ll know soon! At NAB we’ll be able to see it in action…looking forward to that!
 
Jim,

Graeme's device will be one of many add-ons to help complement the magical piece of tech you guys just wrought. I really can't begin to describe the very many features that the RedOne already has that does it for me. Focus pulling, though vital, is only one of many other problems just owning the camera, eases - the workflow for one, kicks ass!
 
Gibby another saving grace of RED1 when shooting sports or other fast moving activity for HD or even SD distribution one can shoot with a wider lense thus easing the focus problem and use red cine to cut out the 1080 CU from the 4K frame
 
tj williams said:
Gibby another saving grace of RED1 when shooting sports or other fast moving activity for HD or even SD distribution one can shoot with a wider lense thus easing the focus problem and use red cine to cut out the 1080 CU from the 4K frame
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Excellent points TJ. Wide angle lenses help enable deeper DOF. I'll shoot almost everything in 4k REDCODE RAW, and tweak it with REDCINE.
 
F8 at 320'ish iso?

250'ish candle if memory serves...

Where's the GAIN button? LOL

And actually, Gibby with "virtually" noiseless Gain, stops can be had electronically and then stopped down for greater DOF and still be "4K'ish".
 
F stop example
if shooting 35 mode
25mm lens focused at 10ft F8 = 5ft to infinity in focus
25mm lens foucsed at 10ft F2.8 = 7'5" to 15'4"
lenses wider then 25mm you'll have very good (deep) DoF at all F stops...

longer lenses = less DoF ( shallow focus)
50mm focused at 10ft F8 = 8' to 13'3"
50mm focused at 10 ft F 2.8 = 9'2" to 10'11"

50mm focus at 25ft f8 = 15' to 66'
50mm 25ft F 2.8 = 21" to 29'

100mm 10ft F8= 9'2" to 10'11"
100mm 10ft F2.8 = 9'9" to 10"2"

100mm 25ft F8= 21' to 29'
100 25ft F2.8= 24' to 26'
 
Gibby said:
4) At apertures of between f5.6 and f11, in tandem with Graeme’s Magic Focus assist, experienced solo shooters should be able to rack their own focus. With practice, beginners will too.
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Thanks Gibby, as usual your advice make me feel good and give me more hope. I guess I'm going to train focussing with my doggies for a while. Cheers mate
 
I'm curious about these DOF calculations, they assume some particular "circle of confusion" right? It seems that this should be different (smaller) for a 4k image as opposed to lesser formats?
 
the figures are from American Cinematographers manual ..based on 35mm format 24mm X 18mm...
they should be viewed as not exact figures but just showing how F8 and F2.8 have different DoF ...

seems to me that if a 25mm is always 25mm on any format then DoF should be the same - what will be different will be the field of view ...

you can have a 4k on a 24x18mm or 2/3" sensor ..
i believe the DoF will be the same if you have a 2/3 sensor that is 4k or 480p/i ?
 
Jannard;18731modest start-up in production Jim[/QUOTE said:
Hi Jim

When are we likely to hear how many cameras will first be produced in the "modest start-up"

I'm anxious to get my #68 and will be happy to work with firmware updates and provide feedback.

Thanks
Rory
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@donatello: I agree that in some absolute sense the numbers apply to any camera with the 24x18 mm frame size. I'm just thinking that DOF implies drawing some line between "in focus" and "out of focus". If you imagine shooting some scene and viewing it on a display, there are points in that frame that may appear "in focus" at 480p or 720p or 1080p display resolution that you could see are not quite in focus at 4k. If that is true, then the DOF is effectively larger at lower display resolutions, even with the same image from the same camera.
 
Or shoot wide - that helps too as pointed above. It's the combo of long lens and open aperture that causes shallow DOF.

Graeme
 
Hey Graeme,

any idea how much effective db gain can be applied before being noticed at 2k assuming 4k initial acquisition? How does this translate into effective "stops".

I'm curious about low light work.

James
 
donatello said:
seems to me that if a 25mm is always 25mm on any format then DoF should be the same - what will be different will be the field of view ...
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That's correct. On a smaller chip 25mm will have a tighter FOV but the same DOF... which is why it takes such a big zoom to get shallow DOF on our 1/3" cameras.

Your DOF chart is what I was going to post. Even at F8 it's nowhere near the DEEP DOF you'd see on an HVX given the same Focal Length.
 
donatello said:
F stop example
if shooting 35 mode
25mm lens focused at 10ft F8 = 5ft to infinity in focus
25mm lens foucsed at 10ft F2.8 = 7'5" to 15'4"
lenses wider then 25mm you'll have very good (deep) DoF at all F stops...
Click to expand...

Does it matter if that 25mm is from a zoom lens or a prime? So if i'm using the RED zoom at 18mm then focus is no issue?
 
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