Backup and Tape device answers

[Tim Jones]

Get 'em while they're hot...

Get 'em while they're hot...

that looks good, now i have to wait on $$$. can u email me if any specials come up? ps.what do the tapes run $-wise...

We are running a special for REDUser forum members through the end of January, check this thread:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39445

As to tape cost, right now, LTO-4 media is $55 each with discounts in 10 packs to $500 if you purchase from us. Of course, media prices fluctuate, so be sure to double check when you order.

 

[bryanpapierski]

i see they have an lto-4 half... do u carry that and the (dell) has a monthely payment plan...
please email me
bryan@squirm.tv

 

[James Press]

Hi James,

I've worked with ADIC's StorNext since the way-back days and Xsan since Apple gave us the first developer builds. Something that many folks don't realize is that Xsan is just StorNext with Apple's mods applied. Both are great solutions, but I would ask a few questions before choosing either. Do you really need SAN management or would simpler shared storage meet your needs. Do you need RealTime I/O support, or is the storage system simply used for storing data? Are you going to have 10 editors accessing 4K-based raw streams directly from the array, or is the file I/O during editing limited to the local system with only the finished and mid-line work stored on the array? As for StorNext vs. Xsan, do you have lots of non-Apple systems that will be accessing the data? Xsan is a bit more limited in that vein than StorNext. Finally, is your IT team ready to take on the task of getting StorNext completely set, or does the Apple-esque design of the Xsan management tools fit your team's work model better?

:coolgleamA: One note - if you do go with Xsan, you can integrate other platforms (Sun, Linux, HP-UX, etc) using ADIC's StorNext FX client software.

Sorry that there's not a real answer in all of that, but there are a lot of variables that must be weighed before committing to one solution over the other.

As for PresSTORE's support of either, I'm definitely not the right guy :devil: ...

Thanks Tim! Some great food for thought-- a much more constructive answer than my question, given the variables!

 

[pliny]

If anyone in the New York area has an LTO-4 / Bru setup, I'm looking for data retrieval services. A client shipped me 7 LTO-4 tapes generated up with Bru. (I could retrieve TAR archives from these tapes, but not ones generated with Bru.)

Anyone interested can call me at the office: 212-260-8400. Ask for Pliny, PLY-knee. Thanks.

 

[Tim Jones]

That's one reason the BRU Demo doesn't timeout on restores

That's one reason the BRU Demo doesn't timeout on restores

If anyone in the New York area has an LTO-4 / Bru setup, I'm looking for data retrieval services. A client shipped me 7 LTO-4 tapes generated up with Bru. (I could retrieve TAR archives from these tapes, but not ones generated with Bru.)

Anyone interested can call me at the office: 212-260-8400. Ask for Pliny, PLY-knee. Thanks.

Or ... you could install BRU PE in DEMO mode and restore the data in much the same way you would from tar - it will be command line, but the syntax for tar and bru are almost identical. The only important data point that you need is what the BRU block size was set to when they created the tapes.

If you already know tar, you can check out the bru manpage that is installed when you install BRU PE.

Also, if you have a specific question, you can open a demo support ticket and one of the team will get back to you.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Tim,

Does BRU PE support 2:1 compression? I can't find an option for it in preferences or anywhere else.

 

[Tim Jones]

It's all automatic

It's all automatic

Tim,

Does BRU PE support 2:1 compression? I can't find an option for it in preferences or anywhere else.

Hi Andre,

The compression is controlled by the drive and the data being backed up. For most of what you will be backing up in the media realm, the files are already compressed, so you'll only see the native storage capacity of the tapes used.

Basically, if you backup a normal Mac system including apps and avergae user data, you'll actually see around 1.4:1 with modern drives (around 1.1TB on an LTO-4 tape). However, for video and audio files, that will be 1:1 since the data's already compressed. On the other hand, if you're backing up a TB of Word docs, you might see things jump as high as 10:1.

I'd go into a long dissertation on drive compression algorithms, but suffice it to say that the methods used analyze and recognize the data coming into the drive and automatically enable or disable the compression code. That's why the drives have such large input buffers. There's nothing that you need to do in the managing software.

Ain't modern technology swell?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Thank you very much Tim for your explanation. Had a 5 pack of HP cartridges come in today and had the first chance to actually backup something. Both BRU PR and BRU Server seem very easy to get up and running. Due to the EDL update for BRU PE 3.0... will more than likely order BRU PE after the demo period ends. I kind of wish I could stick 1.6TB of media data on a LTO-4 tape... lol... too bad it can't be compressed down.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Are you guys getting around 762GB of data to a full LTO-4 tape?

 

[James Press]

Yep, about that.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Yep, about that.

Thanks James... I really bought into the 2:1 compression hype. A bit of a let down to only have 762GB instead of 1.6TB. They really shouldn't promote that compression feature so much. At least label the tapes 800GB and then in fine print put 1.6TB with compression. O' well I got the HP 1840 drive brand new for a great price... will sell immediately once LTO-5 is released.

 

[James Press]

LTO1=100GB; LTO2=200GB; LTO3+400GB etc. The 2:1 compression is, as you've discovered, not recommended. Even at (only) 800GB, LTO4 will be good for a while--I wouldn't be overly keen to upgrade to LTO5 for a while--the cost of the new drives AND the high cost of the tapes will make it less economic than LTO4 for quite a while. And 800GB is 8 hours of 4K r3ds, quite a bit.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

LTO1=100GB; LTO2=200GB; LTO3+400GB etc. The 2:1 compression is, as you've discovered, not recommended. Even at (only) 800GB, LTO4 will be good for a while--I wouldn't be overly keen to upgrade to LTO5 for a while--the cost of the new drives AND the high cost of the tapes will make it less economic than LTO4 for quite a while. And 800GB is 8 hours of 4K r3ds, quite a bit.

Well from what was stated by Tim, the hardware compression is automatic based on what data you are copying over to the LTO4. So it is the standard way any LTO4 machine works (so its more than recommended... its default). I would upgrade to LTO5 and then purchase the media off ebay at discounts. I just got a 5 pack of LTO4 tape on ebay for $145. I got the HP 1840 brand new also for $2450 off ebay. So yes i wouldn't purchase an LTO5 drive or media at retail prices. But I definitely would purchase one as soon as its released. The archival for R3D files is not so bad... but we are also planning to archive the high quality proxies along with the R3D files.

 

[Tim Jones]

I wouldn't be overly keen to upgrade to LTO5 for a while--the cost of the new drives AND the high cost of the tapes will make it less economic than LTO4 for quite a while. And 800GB is 8 hours of 4K r3ds, quite a bit.

But, if you've NOT purchased your drive yet and see the 1.5TB as important, you can keep in mind that the LTO-5 is 100% compatible for both read and write of LTO-4 media (and reads LTO-3).

The only issue here is the increased drive price and the fact that the drives won't most likely be available until late Spring (we still don't have a firm date from the manufacturers).

In response to Andrea's comments about eBay purchases. 2 words of warning (since we all know how honorable some eBay resellers are...):

1. Make sure that the reseller has a DOA return policy
2. For hardware, ask explicitly if the hardware is gray-market - i.e.: devices purchased by an OEM (Dell, Sun, Acer, et al) and then being resold outside of their normal channel. In that case, you're buying a Dell / Sun / Acer product that most likely won't be supported by then OR the original manufacturer (HP, IBM, et al). They may be "new", but they may not be legitimate.

The unfortunate thing about eBay is that it is a buyer beware environment, so please be sure to vet your resellers before "saving" a few bucks. Over the past 10 years, we've seen many tape hardware buyers burned.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Regarding checking the warranty here's the HP Warranty Check Page:
http://www13.itrc.hp.com/service/ewarranty/warrantyInput.do?admit=109447627+1263771235771+28353475

I just had to check mine after Tim's last post... thankfully everything is covered under the three year warranty. I guess I was lucky on ebay. It's definitely an environment where you have to have your geek wits about you. Following what Tim stated... I would go further and ask for the serial number and check it yourself.

 

[Roy Pearson]

Hey Guys,

I recently started using BRU PE with LTO-4 on Mac OS X. I've found it fast and easy to use so far, I just have one question regarding catalog info.

I know the info is stored in the Archives and Tapes folders on my system, and I've read that it also gets copied onto the tape. So if my system HDD crashes, how do I access that catalog info on the tape? Tolis Tape Tools? I'm not very familiar with the Terminal commands.

Thanks all, this thread has been very helpful so far.

 

[Tim Jones]

It's coming ...

It's coming ...

I know the info is stored in the Archives and Tapes folders on my system, and I've read that it also gets copied onto the tape. So if my system HDD crashes, how do I access that catalog info on the tape? Tolis Tape Tools? I'm not very familiar with the Terminal commands.

Thanks all, this thread has been very helpful so far.

The pending 2.1.0 update will have the import function reenabled as well as a few other updates. I'll let everyone know as soon as we have new news.

Tim

 

[warwickt]

Tim,

Does BRU PE support 2:1 compression? I can't find an option for it in preferences or anywhere else.

Hi Andre, FWIW (as a heavy user of these archives with BRU-PE etc) for your essence you wont see ANY improvement and as Tim may have already stated some time back in a forum and from my own experience, FORGET any notion of the compression offered by any of these tape drive vendors when using R3D, P2, etc or any other such essence.

Simply you wont see any tape drive compression benefit because the material(encoded ESSENCE regardless of the compression scheme) is not the usual STRINGs that the basic tape drive compressor algorithms in these tape drive expect. (LZ1 etc)

BAnk on 800GB native for Ultrium Lto4 and less for some overheads.

yes BRU-Be is excellent!

w

 

[warwickt]

But, if you've NOT purchased your drive yet and see the 1.5TB as important, you can keep in mind that the LTO-5 is 100% compatible for both read and write of LTO-4 media (and reads LTO-3).

The only issue here is the increased drive price and the fact that the drives won't most likely be available until late Spring (we still don't have a firm date from the manufacturers).

In response to Andrea's comments about eBay purchases. 2 words of warning (since we all know how honorable some eBay resellers are...):

1. Make sure that the reseller has a DOA return policy
2. For hardware, ask explicitly if the hardware is gray-market - i.e.: devices purchased by an OEM (Dell, Sun, Acer, et al) and then being resold outside of their normal channel. In that case, you're buying a Dell / Sun / Acer product that most likely won't be supported by then OR the original manufacturer (HP, IBM, et al). They may be "new", but they may not be legitimate.

The unfortunate thing about eBay is that it is a buyer beware environment, so please be sure to vet your resellers before "saving" a few bucks. Over the past 10 years, we've seen many tape hardware buyers burned.

Just my $HK.20 worth....as IBM, HP etc are lining up their ULTRIUM LTO5 tape drives as we speak with LTO6 ULtrium already in the design and implementation phase (I guess), and the usual track record of these for the last few decades I'd propose this scenario:

• when LTO5 Ultrium at 240MB/sec and 1.6TB uncompressed FC and SAS is SHIPPING (already announced by some vendors) then the price of LTO4 tape drives and media will drop by at last 40%-50%.. more for the media
• LTO5 Ultrium will be the usual NEW PRICEs so I'd guess a single desktop tape drive (S/alone) SAS might be at least $USD3500-$USD4000+ - just a guess. I'd expect the LTO5 ULtrium Media to be at least $USD60+ as a starter and then only from some selected vendors as a start... It will take some months for resellers to get it on board and packaged up I'd suspect.
• After say 6 months prices will start to drop and remain stable .. so at this time expect if Utrium LTO5 is shipping say Q210 then expect XMAS 2010 to have prices down a bit. (watched this back in 2006-2008 for the Ultrium LTO4).
• there will be some hybrids out there such as perhaps the one from IBM that offers TAPE PARTITIONING (saw it at IBC). Also our mates from CACHE-A will have an expensive offering I imagine.
• expect the usual load of teething issues with some H/W vendors for actual compliance with the LTO5 Ultrium specification. As an example search these forums with the mess from QUANTUM and their desktop LTO4 with ATTOTECh and others. BTW it took QUANTUM more than 14 months to resolve the issue! I only had mine working in November 2009 whe the issue was well known back in July 2008!) incredible!.. so look out!
• some LTO5 ULTRIUM vendors may OEM from HP. This is good because the HP ULTRIUM lTO4 and I'd expect their LTO5 versions to be rock solid and fully compliant with the LTO spec and many of the HBA vendors such as ATTO TECH, ARECO etc. HP also have a OSX config tool for the tape drives.
• expect issues with some HBA vendors relating to support of the OS platform you are using. If you are using OSX then only use ATTO TECH.. seriously.(search the forums). Areaca's SAS HBA has a driver and config tool for OSx and works ok. But there will always be some issues .. tape BLOCK SIZES are a killer for some of these guys.. stay with ATTO The others work fine on mr softees redmond platform....

As always if you need it now for you business by it. Tolis have a neat bundle.. also others around for the tape drives only such as DIGITAPE. They send international too which is great for me. I'd image TolisGroup would do the same.

LTO4 media now is reasonable. Best in bundles of 10+. However as I remarked before, you can expect the prices for these to drop a lot when LTO5 becomes mainstream (same as ULtrium LTO3 did when ULtrium 4 shipped) .. I'd expect reasonable adoption by creative guys like us by mid 2011 when prices are reasonable, the technology is stable (All the pieces) and we have a a business need.

Oh and one last thing. As Tim has posted you REALLY need to be very careful buying some of this stuff from EBAY due to some drive being already faulty, out of warranty and being dumped by the owners.. same as many things I suppose. ALso so called "new" SAS cables (SFF-8088's for an example). MAny of these manufactured in my part of the world are a bit suss4. Get them from known vendors such as PROAVIO (from B&H) and others. At $HK550 ($USD60/€50) for a small 1M cable, you don't wann be scratching you head for days wondering why the tape drives dont seem to appear on you OS...

Some resellers I mentioned above are great. Bundles like those Tolis Group does are very good and yo know it all works out of the box and is reasonable priced.



w

 

[Roy Pearson]

Do you guys always choose to verify your tapes? If so, has the verification ever picked up an error?