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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Backorder Update - November 8

Mark. First of all. thanks for the kind presentation of your complaint :)

I can appreciate your frustration but it's not as simple as you have laid out in your post. As a production company owner.. you should know that is usually the case.. Or maybe you don't... for whatever reason.

A few comments on your post.

First of all... demand is different for each item we make. If one item has 50,000 units in backorder and another one has 40, it doesn't matter how simple or hard that 2nd item is to make, chances are the lower number is going to get out of backorder first, given separate production lines, and shared machines.

2nd.. Things change. Engineering changes. Sometimes an item might be ready to ship.. and something is found at the last minute that can be improved. Initial testing of a product that ships to our beta customers comes back with some valuable feedback for change. That takes time to implement. Or one small component can go into shortage. If one component out of a thousand for a product is short.. you can't ship it. Sometimes engineers tell us dates that don't happen. That is part of engineering... they seem to be professionals at guessing wrong completion dates. That's why I make these threads and try to update you guys ever week or so on where things sit while we are in the middle of manufacturing ramp up.

3rd.. Priorities. That 15mm assault plate which you deem to be a critical item, 14 out of 15 other customers may think its the lowest thing on the list. Same with any other accessory. We need to determine the priority of what we make.. and to us the foundational pieces of the system are priority. That is subjective, but we make it so we get to choose.

4th. You suggest we are developing new product and forgetting about finishing "old" products. Not true. You have no idea when stuff is designed, engineered, and put into the process... you are assuming.

5th. You make it sound like things are TRICKLING out. Guess how many thousands of DSMC side handles we have shipped? How many thousands of REDMOTEs we have shipped? How many thousands of EVFs? People seem to think that if a post is made with 20 customers responding to it that they haven't received anything.. that nothing is being made. Again...Not true. Not all of our customers hang out at Reduser... and a lot of them do but never post.

6th. Production ramp up does have temporary collateral damage. When we bring new machines in.. it takes time to get them working. if its a new machine that takes training.. our machinists need to train. that takes time away from something else. When you bring in a new machinist to operate the new machines.. someone needs to train them. That takes time. But once that pain is over.. the sky is the limit.

7th. Please.. next time someone complains about pricing compared to " what stage x owners are paying " I am going to loose it. Specially stage 3 which is probably the most generous act of customer appreciation that any company has ever done, in any market, in any history. Tell me one other company that is going to give you full value of what you paid for 3 years ago in exchange for a new product. So for you to compare the price of anything against what the net price of any of the early stages is, it just is not fair.

Listen.. I am not making excuses for being late. We are late. We hate it. We are sorry. We know it will get better... it already is.

You can bitch and complain all you want.. you have earned that. Just don't make assumptions or conspiracies or try to pretend like you know what goes on behind closed doors. Thats gonna piss us off.

Fair enough?
 
AndrewThomas said:
Hey Jarred,

Let's hypothetically say that if I ordered an Al Canon Scarlet within the first hour it was on the store, and if I happened to have the balance sitting in my account at red ready to be taken up the moment my camera is allocated....

...how likely is it that I'm going to have a merry Christmas?
Click to expand...

Very.
 
Heres hoping a stage 4 person here can have a very merry Christmas too. Got my money to lay down in full the day we can order.

But realistically, think it will be January. Either way, can't wait.

:))
 
Hi Jarred

Will the I/O module allow simultaneous use of the BOMB EVF and LCD with the Scarlet-X or is it simply that the restricted bandwidth that makes this impossible?
 
Originally Posted by AndrewThomas
Hey Jarred,

Let's hypothetically say that if I ordered an Al Canon Scarlet within the first hour it was on the store, and if I happened to have the balance sitting in my account at red ready to be taken up the moment my camera is allocated....

...how likely is it that I'm going to have a merry Christmas?


Jarred Land said:
Very.
Click to expand...

Thanks this warms my heart!
 
Big sigh. I'm really disappointed to find out, buried in this thread, that a DSMC side handle I was hoping might arrive end of November will now be coming out mid January. This is the kind of information that should be disseminated by Bomb Squad reps. Luckily I've already pushed the button on an alternative power supply solution.
 
I am hoping for a very merry Christmas as well. I ordered AL mount Scarlet within hours on Nov 3rd. I am anxiously awaiting the email and shipping info.

Jarred, this is amazing. Simple updates like this are all most of us need. We realize not all your customers are in the forums but the many of us that follow this forum for updates like this. It is great, even if things are behind schedule to just get knowledge of it and plan for a newer date in the future.

Understood things change quickly, so even daily updates are not neccessary. I think what is important is when a date for a product falls behind, that a new date further out is mentioned right away. This should save a lot of time.

Anyway, you made my day by stating the Scarlet X with AL mounts ordered Nov 3 should be out by Christmas. Thanks so much. If things change on that, just an update would calm us down, but fingers crossed. Thanks so much Jarred
 
Eric J said:
I am hoping for a very merry Christmas as well. I ordered AL mount Scarlet within hours on Nov 3rd. I am anxiously awaiting the email and shipping info.

Jarred, this is amazing. Simple updates like this are all most of us need. We realize not all your customers are in the forums but the many of us that follow this forum for updates like this. It is great, even if things are behind schedule to just get knowledge of it and plan for a newer date in the future.

Understood things change quickly, so even daily updates are not neccessary. I think what is important is when a date for a product falls behind, that a new date further out is mentioned right away. This should save a lot of time.

Anyway, you made my day by stating the Scarlet X with AL mounts ordered Nov 3 should be out by Christmas. Thanks so much. If things change on that, just an update would calm us down, but fingers crossed. Thanks so much Jarred
Click to expand...

Right on.
 
Managing success is probably as difficult & important as managing the start-up or managing failure, so I understand this stuff to a certain extent.

But I still say good communication would go a long way. Jarred, I know you guys are talking about coming out of backorder on everything soon. But you are RED. You'll create more cool things that will then be backordered when demand is too great. So, I still think you should set up a system that gives some type of idea of status, rather than just keeping people waiting, wondering, "assuming," etc. I mean, I stay out of this stuff usually, but I do think you "reap what you sow" a lot of times on these boards. ;-) I think I have personally & politely asked for this update you just gave about 5 times in 5 different threads...it can be frustrating to not hear back when RED always says "we're listening." And of course the sales team is awesome, but refuse to comment at all on backorder status.

So, I hope you'll still give consideration to a new "Update" sticky that is updated weekly. I don't see how that would be anything except a good thing.

Thanks and onward.

Kevin
 
Kevin Wild said:
Managing success is probably as difficult & important as managing the start-up or managing failure, so I understand this stuff to a certain extent.

But I still say good communication would go a long way. Jarred, I know you guys are talking about coming out of backorder on everything soon. But you are RED. You'll create more cool things that will then be backordered when demand is too great. So, I still think you should set up a system that gives some type of idea of status, rather than just keeping people waiting, wondering, "assuming," etc. I mean, I stay out of this stuff usually, but I do think you "reap what you sow" a lot of times on these boards. ;-) I think I have personally & politely asked for this update you just gave about 5 times in 5 different threads...it can be frustrating to not hear back when RED always says "we're listening." And of course the sales team is awesome, but refuse to comment at all on backorder status.

So, I hope you'll still give consideration to a new "Update" sticky that is updated weekly. I don't see how that would be anything except a good thing.

Thanks and onward.

Kevin
Click to expand...

i think this is really well said. I think this is especially important when delivery estimates are given for backordered items but the goal was not met. For example the DSMC Side handle was expected to be out of backorder nearly two weeks ago now. Which is fine (though disappointed) but I'll never worry about it if there some communication going on. I know RED is also busy trying to innovate new products, but I think in some cases communication and reliability are more valuable. Hope you will consider it and thanks again.
 
Jarred Land said:
Mark. First of all. thanks for the kind presentation of your complaint :)

I can appreciate your frustration but it's not as simple as you have laid out in your post. As a production company owner.. you should know that is usually the case.. Or maybe you don't... for whatever reason.

A few comments on your post.

First of all... demand is different for each item we make. If one item has 50,000 units in backorder and another one has 40, it doesn't matter how simple or hard that 2nd item is to make, chances are the lower number is going to get out of backorder first, given separate production lines, and shared machines.

2nd.. Things change. Engineering changes. Sometimes an item might be ready to ship.. and something is found at the last minute that can be improved. Initial testing of a product that ships to our beta customers comes back with some valuable feedback for change. That takes time to implement. Or one small component can go into shortage. If one component out of a thousand for a product is short.. you can't ship it. Sometimes engineers tell us dates that don't happen. That is part of engineering... they seem to be professionals at guessing wrong completion dates. That's why I make these threads and try to update you guys ever week or so on where things sit while we are in the middle of manufacturing ramp up.

3rd.. Priorities. That 15mm assault plate which you deem to be a critical item, 14 out of 15 other customers may think its the lowest thing on the list. Same with any other accessory. We need to determine the priority of what we make.. and to us the foundational pieces of the system are priority. That is subjective, but we make it so we get to choose.

4th. You suggest we are developing new product and forgetting about finishing "old" products. Not true. You have no idea when stuff is designed, engineered, and put into the process... you are assuming.

5th. You make it sound like things are TRICKLING out. Guess how many thousands of DSMC side handles we have shipped? How many thousands of REDMOTEs we have shipped? How many thousands of EVFs? People seem to think that if a post is made with 20 customers responding to it that they haven't received anything.. that nothing is being made. Again...Not true. Not all of our customers hang out at Reduser... and a lot of them do but never post.

6th. Production ramp up does have temporary collateral damage. When we bring new machines in.. it takes time to get them working. if its a new machine that takes training.. our machinists need to train. that takes time away from something else. When you bring in a new machinist to operate the new machines.. someone needs to train them. That takes time. But once that pain is over.. the sky is the limit.

7th. Please.. next time someone complains about pricing compared to " what stage x owners are paying " I am going to loose it. Specially stage 3 which is probably the most generous act of customer appreciation that any company has ever done, in any market, in any history. Tell me one other company that is going to give you full value of what you paid for 3 years ago in exchange for a new product. So for you to compare the price of anything against what the net price of any of the early stages is, it just is not fair.

Listen.. I am not making excuses for being late. We are late. We hate it. We are sorry. We know it will get better... it already is.

You can bitch and complain all you want.. you have earned that. Just don't make assumptions or conspiracies or try to pretend like you know what goes on behind closed doors. Thats gonna piss us off.

Fair enough?
Click to expand...

Jarred,

First of all this wasn't intended as a bitch or complaint, but rather a request. I wasn't assuming anything with regard to what goes on behind closed doors, and I certainly never suggested that there was a conspiracy at play. That's just plain ridiculous.

And thanks for your explanations. I actually DO understand everything you listed in 1-6. And as I said, I appreciate the effort to get things out of backorder.

My request was just what you stated -- to prioritize on the foundational pieces of the EPIC system - the original components of the package we ordered, and the accessory that are critical components of RED's camera system and support AKS. As you said, it maybe it's subjective as to what is seen as part of a foundational system, and yup you guys build it so it's your decision on what to build, ramp, etc.

But I think many of your customers would agree that the Pro I/O module would be considered a critical component of a camera system and a priority (as are the Red Motes and Battery Modules). But we haven't gotten any news or information about it for a long time. There have been many requests from users here to learn more, but I don't think anything has been posted. I do hope that is still in the road map. I would certainly prefer RED's solution, and don't want to have to resort to a third party product.

When it comes to your camera support system, I am really impressed. The thought and engineering that went into your support systems for EPIC is obvious. Matt and team have done an awesome job.

Take the RED QR system for example. It's brilliant. Having a quick release system that lets you quickly move from a studio configuration to a light weight hand held configuration is a godsend. So when I saw the Modular Assault Plate bottom plate in the store with 15mm light weigh support built in, I naturally ordered it along with two QR dovetails and a bolt-on as well.

The QR systems arrive right away. Cool!

I needed a top plate, so I ordered Brook's, but didn't order their bottom plate or ribs, because I wanted to use it with the QR system. A couple of weeks after I get Brook's plate, RED announces the Tactical top plate. COOL! Damn! Wish I hadn't already spent a few hundred bucks on one. But I saw the note in the announcement that it was part of a "system" and that would include side SWAT rails that would be compatible with the QR system. Just what I wanted. So I ordered it. Two weeks later, the Tactical system is revealed on RedUser. WAY COOL. So I ordered a cage. And some side rails. Figuring it will be a while before I see anything in the Tactical system (based on experience).

Meanwhile I still don't have the Assault plate, so we work around it. But don't I have a way to use my second QR plate for my RED shoulder mount with 15mm rods and a lightweight mattebox and follow focus.

Then the Tactical plate ships. Cool! But still no Assault plate. Or Red Mote. When I ask my Bomb Squad rep, I get the typical.. "It's on backorder and shipping but we can't tell you when to expect it.." OK.

Then a second Bomb EVF ships. Wow! Didn't expect that for weeks or months. I guess you guys really DID ramp that up. But if thousands of Red Motes are shipping, where are they?

And yeah, compared to a QR system or Red Mote, the Assault Plate looks relatively simple. Maybe a bazillion people ordered it and I'm in the back of the bus.

But please let me clarify your point #7. I wasn't complaining about the trade in value of my Red. What you guys have done for everybody in stage 2 and 3 is incredibly generous and unheard of. That's just one reason why I am a loyal and some would say rabid fan. Yeah, in hindsight, stage 3 guys got a sweet deal and a guaranteed, full value trade in, and can sell AKS on top of that and come out ahead. I chose Stage 2, still have my camera, and using it, and it's earned its keep. And I'll still get a reasonable price for if I sell it. But because stage 3 ramped very quickly after stage 2 and Scarlet was announced about the same time with specs that are competitive to the RED One, the market dynamics suddenly changed, and I'll take a hit on selling my Red One compared to what I could have sold it for earlier, had I had all of my EPIC components. Like I said, water under the bridge.

My point was that as a business owner, I try to plan and make business decisions based on RED's guidance on when things will ship. So I appreciate any level of communication and transparency on shipping schedules -- including your posts.

Maybe it would help if your reps were able to provide more accurate estimates of shipping dates based on run rates, number of back orders, etc... so it isn't such a mystery. Predicting shipping dates for a mass of customers for one product is understandably challenging. Looking at a particular customer's order date and knowing the supply chain, it would be nice if they could say... you should have it in about X days or whatever. And of course as things DO change (as they always do) posting updates to RedUser really is greatly appreciated.

So please take this as feedback, a request, and leave it at that. Fair enough?

Meanwhile I AM shooting with two amazing cameras and loving it! And appreciating everything the RED team has done and is doing to change the world.

M
 
I have to agree with you mark there is no solid way to make business or creative decisions around red... I suppose. We should have learned this by now. You just want to believe them when they say something cause their products are so damn good. I would have expected to have received my scarlet by now... But there are no signs of it coming soon and I ordered the night of the event with a pl mount. I love red but it's very frustrating to deal with in a scheduled fashion
 
$1000 says threads like these will be gone by June 2012... any takers? both Jim and Jarred are guesstimating a couple months and they are out of BO for the most part and i for one have seen an incredible increase in efficiency. Redmote (shipped I'm 152) Side Handle arrived last week

And FYI - jarred talking time to write that much response (which was awesome btw) probably just put at least 4 back ordered parts behind another day!
 
Paul Russell said:
Big sigh. I'm really disappointed to find out, buried in this thread, that a DSMC side handle I was hoping might arrive end of November will now be coming out mid January. This is the kind of information that should be disseminated by Bomb Squad reps. Luckily I've already pushed the button on an alternative power supply solution.
Click to expand...

your reading this wrong... we are out of backorder in january. that means every order placed until yesterday.. We still are shipping them daily. January is worst case.
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
I have to agree with you mark there is no solid way to make business or creative decisions around red... I suppose. We should have learned this by now. You just want to believe them when they say something cause their products are so damn good. I would have expected to have received my scarlet by now... But there are no signs of it coming soon and I ordered the night of the event with a pl mount. I love red but it's very frustrating to deal with in a scheduled fashion
Click to expand...

I ( again ) don't like Mark's response so I am not even going to reply to it.... but Ryan, I love your post.. Thanks.

You cut through all the bullshit and got right to the point... and you stated the biggest issue we set to change in the forthcoming months ahead.

For the first few years of the company we concentrated 100% of our efforts into making the best products out there.. products that we were told were "impossible to make" and accurate forecasts were secondary.. when you are inventing so many things all at the same time that have never been made before it is really hard to guess. Things got better.. but so did volume and customers.

Over the last 6 months we have brought on a strong team to help solve this.. and I know it is hard to see...but trust me, you look at where we are right now vs a year ago and your head would spin. Remember.. Not even 8 months year ago we were building our cameras and bits on a sound stage at our studio in hollywood.. our manufacturing facility did not exist.

Look at the EVF situation as an example. We battled that one for years. Total Clusterfuck. That EVF thread haunted us every night... thousands of customers wicked pissed off.. for good reason. Then we started selling Epic and the backorders compounded. black hole got deeper. we were actually making more and more.. but it didn't look like it from the outside. Customers lost trust no matter how many shipped out. Mass confusion. Then Scarlet starts shipping.. opportunity for the black hole to get deeper. But it didn't. Finally... come next week... we are 100% caught up.

We are knocking these things down one by one... it might be hard to see.. but it is happening. Just give us a couple more months :)
 
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