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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Aww... the $4750 was pushing it already...

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That's really a moire effect, created optically outside the camera. You can duplicate that easily with various scrims, nets, etc.. You don't even need a camera, but can see the same effect with your own eyes. So, uh, not sure where that thread was going... Quite admirable that the camera captured it the way it did.
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And Jeff, pertaining to the skrims, I disagree with your assertion with the first shot they showed. Yes, the futher examples with the blinds where you have two different patterns creating a moire sampling through the holes of the skrim, but on the first shot, there is clearly rainbow colored aliasing to the shot. In addition, I don't see any screen on that window, so there is no other patterned object behind it, especially in the sky shots, to cause any optical moire. But even if there were screen, the screen and skrim aren't going to cause the moire to discolor like that.
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You will get aliasing and moire, including color diffraction, anytime you optically overlay two fixed geometrical patterns, in this example the scrim and the camera sensor.
The question with regard to digital cameras is at what spatial frequency do these occur? If you have enough resolution you push the spatial frequency high enough that under most circumstances it won't be an issue.
It doesn't dismay me that a 4k camera would show moire on something as fine as a scrim, it just makes a scrim a bad choice for in shot lighting control.
By comparison older SD interlaced NTSC cameras could show moire on a rep tie.
 
Simon Zimmer said:
Thank you! Good point!

But the Scarlet on paper is so much better - blah blah blah!

I am getting my AF100 in December. I can't wait!

Enjoy your Scarlet on paper. ;)

Simon
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Those of us closely following the work being done with R1-MX and the development of Scarlet and Epic understand that at some point Red is going to hand us a creative tool with a palette and canvas beyond anything available before to photographers and cinematographers, either film or digital. Well worth the wait IMO.
 
David Rasberry said:
Those of us closely following the work being done with R1-MX and the development of Scarlet and Epic understand that at some point Red is going to hand us a creative tool with a palette and canvas beyond anything available before to photographers and cinematographers, either film or digital. Well worth the wait IMO.
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Yeah, I find the wait frustrating, too. But it doesn't mean I'm going to buy into yet another system before RED starts shipping Scarlets. Of course, I'm in a position where it's basically impossible for me to get any production work done right now, so I have the "luxury" of waiting around.

Still, if I had a project that needed to roll immediately I've got equipment I could use in the interim. I'm sure most of us do. And it may not be 3K, but it's world's better than the Hitachi tube camera and Sony U-Matic deck that I did all my work on 25 years ago. ;-)
 
This is it.... everyone has to buy the best kit they can for the shoots they have coming up...

As i've said before.... I have a big shoot in June 2011 that has been planned for 2 years... I fully expected to be shooting on Scarlet S35 at the time of conception of the idea. Unfortunatly, it seems unlikely... so we set our sights on 2/3" cinema... but unfortunatly that seems unlikely too.

This is why we need to weigh up the pros and cons of other systems, just in case RED don't make our particular deadline.

Luckily I can probably hold out until April 2011 before making a choice (back orders could be a problem though).

Praying for good RED news in the next few months.
 
Jim Retar said:
This is it.... everyone has to buy the best kit they can for the shoots they have coming up...

As i've said before.... I have a big shoot in June 2011 that has been planned for 2 years... I fully expected to be shooting on Scarlet S35 at the time of conception of the idea. Unfortunatly, it seems unlikely... so we set our sights on 2/3" cinema... but unfortunatly that seems unlikely too.

This is why we need to weigh up the pros and cons of other systems, just in case RED don't make our particular deadline.

Luckily I can probably hold out until April 2011 before making a choice (back orders could be a problem though).

Praying for good RED news in the next few months.
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Why not shooting R1?


Just curious.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Why not shooting R1?


Just curious.
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It is a 6 week shot in Iceland and Greenland in some very, very remote locations.

The cost of rental and insurance would be close, if not more, than buying a nice camera set up. We came very close to buying a used R1, but the allure of Scarlet has kept us from doing so. My concern is the weight of the R1 plus tripod etc needed... we are just a 3 man team and will be mountain climbing, rock climbing, glacier walking etc with all the kit. But perhaps if Epic is out, but Scarlet seems some way off, a used R1 could be an option.

Scarlet seems perfect though, as we shoot alot of hard to reach places.... fingers crossed.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
And we are having this argument about AF-100 vs. 7D here on reduser because...???

*zzzzzzz* :ack2:
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BECAUSE some of us are not actually red USERS until the scarlet comes out. Can't discuss something that we don't have.

I am however now a 60D user and have a list of things I don't like about it for shooting motion. That fraking resolution problem is fairly high on the list, although not as high as how hard it is to keep focus... or how worthless sound is unless you record separate sound. The codec is on the list too... you'd think that 43mbps would be reasonable, but... well at least in motion you can't see the artifacts as easily.

This thread is about the opinion that '$4750 was pushing it already'. Which is how it got into a discussion about the alternatives. To stay on topic.. I guess it depends on how hard it is to get an extra grand and what you plan on doing with the camera. Sure $5k was pushing it for me too, but I'll find a way. I don't even have the $5k any more - I spent it on something.. who knows what. If I could at all justify the price of the epic i'd get on that list instead of wishing for the scarlet. But I am a self-proclaimed soccer mom, so I'm not sure I'd qualify.

This week I'm looking at that movie Monsters and what the director did with a Sony EX3 and a copy of after effects. That's the dream... To make a film at home on "no" budget. Like Primer but with better sound and an understandable ending. The fantasy is that once you have the camera you can sort of cheat the rest. I know that can happen - it does happen. I learned film making from a guy who did it in his house on 35mm film. But the truth is that you could do it with an iPhone if you're really a good story teller. A shallow dof isn't worth near what a good script and a little talent is. But it's easier to bitch about specs and resolution sheets than it is to actually shoot something and try to tell a story.

I think people get on this forum and say "i'm out" when they were never in. I'm on here tonight simply because I'm putting off my real work and right now its easier to comment than create.

People who want to shoot will buy cameras to shoot with now and then upgrade later when they can afford to. I've never lost money on a pro-sumer camera, and I don't even shoot for a living. Most of the time I use them for 3 or 4 years, make a few bucks here and there, and sell them for 50-80% of what I paid for them. I think my FX1 ended up costing me about $500 to use for 4 years and I made a lot more than that off it.

So sure.. the $4750 was pushing it already for some. But I could probably find a grand worth of crap in my house to sell on ebay to make up the difference. OR.. one job with it.

I just hope that all the stars align for RED so we can stop bitching about not having the camera and start bitching about the price of the hard drives to store all the footage we're gonna shoot.
 
The other worry is that no one from RED has said whether the $1000 extra feature (HDRx) willl require SSD... adding an actual $5000+ to the price to use the feature (and high frame rates/RC).

This is speculation, but I have asked for someone form RED to quash this speculation a few times now and have had no word on the matter.
 
Jim Retar said:
The other worry is that no one from RED has said whether the $1000 extra feature (HDRx™™) willl require SSD... adding an actual $5000+ to the price to use the feature (and high frame rates/RC).

This is speculation, but I have asked for someone form RED to quash this speculation a few times now and have had no word on the matter.
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I think it was pointed out by Jim that it will work with CF, cant find a quote now. Someone will soon if it exists im sure :)
 
Bottom line for most of us that have gear and are using it to make money is that we can afford the gear that gets the money to perform the work. I probably will look at the AF 100 seriously. It has some very nice features that will combine with my NanoFlash. I'll wait and see how the cam performs first ... just as I would when evaluating a scarlet. I do hope scarlet is released later this year or early next year however.
 
Jim Retar said:
The other worry is that no one from RED has said whether the $1000 extra feature (HDRx) willl require SSD... adding an actual $5000+ to the price to use the feature (and high frame rates/RC).
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Jim Jannard has already answered the question: "HDRx for 2/3" Scarlet can be accomplished with a CF, but more options are available with an SSD. You will be able to order 2/3" Scarlet with the optional SSD if you choose."
 
As Easy HDR is part of the Scarlet upgrade and Easy HDR only needs one stream of r3d, it doesn't make sense that you'll need an SSD.

2/3" scarlet processes about half the image data of current R1 - which you can record to CF.

That should pretty much make the other half of the equation understandable...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
As Easy HDR is part of the Scarlet upgrade and Easy HDR only needs one stream of r3d, it doesn't make sense that you'll need an SSD.

2/3" scarlet processes about half the image data of current R1 - which you can record to CF.
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Not quite. Doesn't R1 tap out at about 42 MB/sec (RedCode 42)? Scarlet will support up to 100 MB/sec (RC100). Scarlet's higher data rates (plus an additional card) make HDRx possible.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Not quite. Doesn't R1 tap out at about 42 MB/sec (RedCode 42)? Scarlet will support up to 100 MB/sec (RC100).
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Sure, but:
"Is capable of", does not equal "is possible on CF"....

You will likely have to highten the compression to a level where the CF is actually capable of recording anything...
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
Jim Jannard has already answered the question: "HDRx™™™ for 2/3" Scarlet can be accomplished with a CF, but more options are available with an SSD. You will be able to order 2/3" Scarlet with the optional SSD if you choose."
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Thanks.... it is really easy to miss info (how many people know that we will be able to shoot faster than 120fps in 2k mode?)....

I wish each time they announced relevent info or answers to important questions, it would be added to a locked thread.

I guess, to sound a bit pessimistic though... when they can say anything and then say subject to change, it doesn't really matter. We might yet be told that HDRx will only work on CF at the lowest RC.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Sure, but:
"Is capable of", does not equal "is possible on CF"....

You will likely have to highten the compression to a level where the CF is actually capable of recording anything...
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True. Jarred said a long time ago that CF can't handle RC100. But that wasn't the question. R1 can't go beyond RC42. I believe that Scarlet will be able to handle data rates above RC42 that will still be recordable to CF, say, RC50 (which, I believe, Jim said was a sweet spot for the Epic HDRx tests). And unless I'm not understanding RC right, even though you'll have to increase the compression ratio to record on CF, at any RC number, 3K Scarlet footage will be less compressed than 4K footage shot on R1.
 
David Rasberry said:
You will get aliasing and moire, including color diffraction, anytime you optically overlay two fixed geometrical patterns, in this example the scrim and the camera sensor.
The question with regard to digital cameras is at what spatial frequency do these occur? If you have enough resolution you push the spatial frequency high enough that under most circumstances it won't be an issue.
It doesn't dismay me that a 4k camera would show moire on something as fine as a scrim, it just makes a scrim a bad choice for in shot lighting control.
By comparison older SD interlaced NTSC cameras could show moire on a rep tie.
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Right, I understand that, which is exactly what an OLPF can remove, as it essential blurs the image to reduce spacial frequency, so the sensor would never see such a sharp pattern. That said, I've never seen a bayer pattern based CMOS sensor use a large enough OLPF to remove all moire/aliasing. My assumption, as I cannot find any information, is a trade-off since the resolution of green is 50% and red/blue each being 25%. You need to pick something in the middle or near green so you don't lose the resolution of the green, which would account for most of the moire coloring that tends to be red/blue being much lower rez, and therefore, getting through the OLPF as a higher spacial frequency then what the sensor can handle.

Even with the awesomeness of the RED cameras, they too have their limitations as well. Albiet, the difference is night and day, but they are there. But, that's the case with ALL cameras, especially film cameras. Just the weight alone of the last film camera we used to shoot a 3D film was amazing. No thank you. It's important to understand the limitations, as this person shooting with skrims might have never experienced this with film, and then shoots on the RED and then gets frustrated that it doesn't work the same (this is hypothetical by the way) and discounts the red.

Same thing happens with people who use VIDEO cameras that have global shutters and never experience skew and then they shoot on the RED ONE and have rolling shutter, yet, they have no experience with a film camera with a spinning shutter. Once again, they had an expectation or something they didn't realize was different. They probably assumed "digital camera" but didn't take into account "cinema camera" if you will.

I'm just not an all or nothing person. The crew I work with understands unequivocally that when the S35 comes out, we are moving to it. I take the role of technical director, as I am the one that knows our equipment inside and out. Given the length of time between now and then is unknown, we'll continue to invest and use systems based on what we could afford and the results. We are in the sub $10k with everything field, so even the S35 will push our budget today with the extra $1k. That's not RED's fault, as I am the first to want 18 stops HANDS DOWN. This is our problem, and we've got to put ourselves in a position to be ready for it. I think the AF100 will be a nice step in the right direction, just as how we felt when we moved to the HVX200 when it came out. It was awesome back then.

Like I said, everyone has the compromises/features they can and cannot live without. It's not right or wrong, it's personal opinion. That said, if you have work to do now, you've got to use what you can get now, and we are in that position.

I can say one thing I won't miss, we shoot live events sometimes. We use the HVX200 as the A camera since it has no time limit and less artifacts. We also shoot 3 7Ds as B cameras. People think you are shooting pictures and start posing when using a 7D :) I know it might sound silly, but I spend more time saying we are shooting video at these things than anything else! :) I need to take an old VHS camcorder and make a shell to put my 7D in :P
 
Rick Burnett said:
I think the AF100 will be a nice step in the right direction
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Yeah, any time I see poor resolution, limited bit-depth causing strange things to happen to gradients and compression artifacts I think, "Man, we're moving in the right direction!" :drool5:
 
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