Aww... the $4750 was pushing it already...

[Lee Saxon]

To the extent that I'm not really sure what market niche the fixed Scarlet is supposed to fit into anymore? I'd imagine it will just eat into their sales of higher priced cameras to the pro markets while bringing in few new users.

The next cheapest option is at least $2k more than the entire Fixed Scarlet kit, just for the brain. I don't think Red's gonna have trouble finding customers who can afford 2/3" Scarlet but can't afford S35 Scarlet.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

The actual cost of a fully usable AF100 is very close to $9,000.00 less lenses, if you already have all the lenses, camera support and power; if you don't, a kit is much more costly.

Let's add it up: you need the camera, 5K, a couple of lens adapters, some SD cards, the AJA ProRez Recorder at 2K, and some CF cards.

Can you use it stripped down? Of course, but for the highest quality it's capable of, you need the AJA Recorder.

Luckily, I can use almost everything that serves my Red and 5DMkII, Follow Focus, Matte Box, mounting, power (I do need either the Anton Bauer or AJA bit), and lenses. I plan to use my Zeiss Primes, Cooke Zoom, and a handful of Nikor lenses. Will probably have to buy the nice little Panasonic 7-14 for really wide shots.

The point I'm making is that the AF100 really isn't priced much differently from a Scarlet kit. Of course one can't buy a Scarlet, so until it is released, we do what we can.

Finally, one should remember that the camera body itself is cheap, cheap, cheap! Cheap enough that it can be thought of as a consumable; when something better is released, trade up; all your extra bits will soldier on.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Mark Grant]

The next cheapest option is at least $2k more than the entire Fixed Scarlet kit, just for the brain. I don't think Red's gonna have trouble finding customers who can afford 2/3" Scarlet but can't afford S35 Scarlet.

But most of the potential fixed Scarlet customers I know were sucked in by the original '3k for $3k' marketing and aren't going to pay $6k for it, or wait another year and hope the price hasn't risen to $8k by then. They're buying DSLRs and putting up with the limitations that imposes.

The 2/3" Scarlet with interchangeable lenses seems like a sensible product, but I can't see who they now plan to sell the fixed Scarlet to at that price... if it's only the pros, then they're just taking away potential sales of the more expensive Scarlet systems.

 

[David Rasberry]

But most of the potential fixed Scarlet customers I know were sucked in by the original '3k for $3k' marketing and aren't going to pay $6k for it, or wait another year and hope the price hasn't risen to $8k by then. They're buying DSLRs and putting up with the limitations that imposes.

The 2/3" Scarlet with interchangeable lenses seems like a sensible product, but I can't see who they now plan to sell the fixed Scarlet to at that price... if it's only the pros, then they're just taking away potential sales of the more expensive Scarlet systems.

Consider the fixed as the inexpensive servo zoom lens option for the interchangeable. You can buy both brains for less than the cost of an aftermarket servo zoom.

 

[Tim Hole]

Consider the fixed as the inexpensive servo zoom lens option for the interchangeable. You can buy both brains for less than the cost of an aftermarket servo zoom.

Like you I see the fixed as a very sweet zoom lens with a brain attached (with some additional goodies ta boot) Buy the interchangeable as well and use the same accessories on both. Marriage made in heaven. But we've had this conversation before!!

 

[Lee Saxon]

But most of the potential fixed Scarlet customers I know were sucked in by the original '3k for $3k' marketing and aren't going to pay $6k for it, or wait another year and hope the price hasn't risen to $8k by then. They're buying DSLRs and putting up with the limitations that imposes.

If they think $2400 for 1080p/24fps/mpeg compression/7-stops is a better deal than $6000 3K/120fps/RC100/18-stops then I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn that's also a pretty good deal...

I wasn't happy about the price increase either (because I didn't have $5750; HDRx is DEFINITELY worth it that $1000) and I'm still not 100% sure I can pull together the money, but I'd rather shoot nothing than ever again deal with JPEG, MPEG, or anything else with white balance baked in.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Really? You'd rather shoot nothing? While I cannot wait for the S35, I have to wait for it, so while I wait, I continue to use what I can get that is available. I'd rather spend the time shooting on ANYTHING I can to help me continue to learn to be a better shooter. Shooting nothing is definitely not going to help that.

And pertaining to price, obviously these changes are going to push out the unknown schedule an unknown amount I can't say one way or another if I'll have the money by release time since, well, I don't have ANY clue what the release schedule is. What I do know is I can continue to make money with my 7D, and with my AF100 when I get it in December, and I'll just continue to save.

 

[Roei Zilber]

btw,
the Scarlet brain itself IS the reason for the 1000$ increase, right?
that means 3275$, no?

 

[Lee Saxon]

Really? You'd rather shoot nothing? While I cannot wait for the S35, I have to wait for it, so while I wait, I continue to use what I can get that is available. I'd rather spend the time shooting on ANYTHING I can to help me continue to learn to be a better shooter. Shooting nothing is definitely not going to help that.

Well I'm assuming you have motion experience already, maybe even do it on a semi-serious or even pro basis, and are probably used to shooting and working with these codecs.

I'm a total hobbyist and I'm only now looking to get into doing motion work. I've been waiting specifically for RAW. Scarlet would be my first motion camera.

Anyway, my point is, as a stills shooter, I've been shooting RAW-only for a decade and am totally spoiled. I look back at JPEGs from my earliest "didn't know how to change to RAW mode" days, I'm just disgusted by how little I can do with them. I don't know if it's worth buying a D7000 or 7D knowing for sure that everything I shoot is going to be worthless and will be thrown in the trash.

I mean, I know of what I shoot when I'm starting out will be worthless no matter what camera I have, but at least with a good camera I have a CHANCE. For instance I have a tiny handful of photos from my FIRST WEEK as a photographer that would still be keepers if only they weren't JPEG Basic Medium Resolution...

 

[Rick Burnett]

I *totally* understand this feeling, as I have struggled with it as well. Especially on my 7D. For instance, I wrote a short film 2 years ago that has been in pre-production ever since. I refuse to shoot it on the 7D. I've shot enough work on the 7D to know its limitations inside and out. Since this is important to me, and this film is VERY sci-fi artistic, I've waited.

Ideally I was going to shoot it on the 2/3 Fixed, but after I spent so long with the 7D, I want an aps-c sized sensor. Given the AF100 is coming out and I pre-ordered one, I am going to shoot internal AND on the Ki Pro Mini off the HD-SDI port.

Ideally? I'd still rather shoot on the S35 WITHOUT question as I want the higher resolution as my film has TONS of compositing work I have to do with AE and Maya, and it is SO EASY working with RED footage for that stuff, I don't want to wait any longer.

As the editor I work with convinced me, every project is a stepping stone. If I wait and wait for the next best thing, I'll never get anything done. I'd rather do something and make that next step, then wait, and never do anything.

In truth, I hope to pull in some investment off my short since I think it's the story that will sell it, and then move up to the Epic instead, but don't tell anyone

 

[Lee Saxon]

You have way more willpower than me, man. If I actually had something ready to shoot, I don't think I could wait even for the AF100. I would probably wait for the D7000 since I have all Nikon lenses, but even that would be a struggle.

I think I need to up my Ritalin dosage...

Then again, I do still think that once I got my Scarlet I'd look back at my D7000-shot short the way I now look at SD stuff shot on the GH1 when I was in middle school. I might actually want to reshoot the thing!

 

[Rick Burnett]

Well, what I didn't mention is we have other projects going on as well. I've just moved mine back in the list as we've shot some music videos for TV and we've been doing parody videos for a few video games. Mostly, I am doing anything and everything to shoot shoot shoot and get my skill level up.

Currently, my work goes like this: Watch a bunch of movies for inspiration, go shoot and try some shots they did in the movies, figure out what I liked and didn't, go back and repeat this process over and over again. Shooting other peoples material makes this easier as if I were shooting my piece, I'd be so busy with the directing, I couldn't be exploring the shots as much.

I also do a lot of reading and for many directors, like Terry Gilliam, I've spent a lot of time understanding for instance why he likes to shoot almost entirely with wide shots. Again, I do all this reading, then get out there with a new lens here and there and start to experiment and see what I like and what I don't. Having the RED isn't going to change this part of what I do. That's why I am okay with waiting. What I really wanted was something between the S35 and the 7D and that is what the AF100 looks like it will be.

Another problem for my film is a portion of it is VERY urban, and I know from experience that shooting in a heavily brick filled setting where I do need deep focus is a nightmare.

Hehe, what I think is funny is when people finally do get to go to a great camera like the S35, many of them aren't going to be able to blame the camera anymore for how their material looks I kid of course, but I know too many people who get hung up on waiting for the next best thing because THAT is what is holding them back.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Damn it Rick you just talked me into buying a D7000 to practice with.

And more books.

 

[Michael Smith]

true!

true!

Well O.K, but to keep descriptions accurate, once it's been transcoded to Pro Res it's no longer the AF100 codec.

The key issue is once you have used LOG GOP 8-bit 4:2:0 on your source footage the damage has been done...

This is a VERY UNFORTUNATE TRUTH. There's no getting around it. Codecs suck. Long gop sucks for acquisition.

My 1 week old canon 60D is a good camera and will have to do until something better comes along. I'm also looking in to that Sony NEX-VG10 (http://bit.ly/952XSm) but it has several problems as well. Mostly again the codec. AVCHD at 24mps.. not good. Not even as good as a good Bluray disc.

Check this out. I had my new 60D at Disneyland and shot video of my daughter fighting Darth Vader (yeah!). Here's a still pulled from the video. I posted it as a png so you can see the compression artifacting in the original footage:

http://badweasel.com/redstuff/MVI_0872.png

Then a zoomed close up showing the compression artifacts:

http://badweasel.com/redstuff/MVI_0872_zoom.png

According to MPEG Streamclip the video is 44.33 Mbps. (H.264, 1920 × 1080, 29.97 fps, 44.33 Mbps) That's not to shabby and is actually way better than sony's 24mbps.. but still it's being compressed in real time, 1 pass, and is going to have some artifacts. In a professional sense.. it sucks!

I also had to chose between shooting video or shooting pictures. I picked to shoot video. But stills pulled from this video, as you can see, just suck. You can take stills while shooting video but it pauses your video for a second.. so that's not practical.

Another big problem with the 60D is that you're limited to about 10 minutes of shooting per shot because of file size limitations. Side note: Someone please tell me this isn't a problem with RED! Please!

Honestly $3k, $5k, $6k - in the end it doesn't matter.. As long as it doesn't go up any higher I'll be buying one. In the mean time I'm stuck with this and will either sell it or just use it for photos when the scarlet finally comes out.

I'm as annoyed as anyone that I don't already have a scarlet in my hands. I wish I was here posting some amazing shots of this taken with a Scarlet. You can argue that I wouldn't take a 6 grand camera to disneyland anyway.. I guess it depends on the size of the camera and how conspicuous it looks. But I probably would.

 

[Stuart English]

Take length

Take length

Another big problem with the 60D is that you're limited to about 10 minutes of shooting per shot because of file size limitations.

Side note: Someone please tell me this isn't a problem with RED!

You can relax Michael, this is not a problem with RED cameras.....

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Panasonic AF-100 footage with Ultra Primes:

http://vimeo.com/15765280

 

[Rick Burnett]

Panasonic AF-100 footage with Ultra Primes:

http://vimeo.com/15765280

Looks like they are going to put up the original files off the internal recorder as well. Will be interesting to look at. So far, not bad at all.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Man, looks like the AF100 will be very impressive.

I wonder if Scarlet could do that opening shot through the window without having the foreground in silhouette? Yeah, I know they did it on purpose in that example footage, and it does look great, I'm just wondering: Is that more than 18 stops?

Random thought : Is that what Canon shutters really sound like? I own Nikon, Leica, Mamiya, and Hasselblad cameras and I've never heard anything like that.

Random thought 2 : there's no way you could shoot a model sitting on a balcony like that without fill light. Or reason you would shoot her on a white seamless without a lighting setup. Did they have to avoid that because of sync issues? Is it a rolling shutter thing?

 

[Bill McCarty]

Random thought 2 : there's no way you could shoot a model sitting on a balcony like that without fill light. Or reason you would shoot her on a white seamless without a lighting setup. Did they have to avoid that because of sync issues? Is it a rolling shutter thing?

My thoughts exactly As a photographer, I had to let that go and realize they were probably just going through the motions for "illustration purposes".

 

[Ivan Kovax]

What happened to 3k for $3k?

A recession?