Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Avid's new Red Native workflow

Forrest said:
Between DS and Redcine - no difference. I'll ask my neighbors at Local Hero to run it through Scratch. Would Scratch have a better debayer quality than RedCine? DS debayers on the fly.

Via Con DS
Click to expand...

Hey Michael,

DS does not debayer on the fly. R3D files are imported to .gen files using the SDK, and then the .gen files are what are used within the DS timeline.

If DS is debayering on the fly, then it is at an extremely low quality, as the native DS hardware won't support a high quality RT debayer based on the SDK.

Also - SCRATCH renders at this point would probably be slightly higher quality then REDCINE renders. Although much of the underlying render code is similar, the build of SCRATCH that is currently available to users is a few months ahead of REDCINE 3.18.

Best,

Lucas
 
luki said:
Hey Michael,

DS does not debayer on the fly. R3D files are imported to .gen files using the SDK, and then the .gen files are what are used within the DS timeline.

If DS is debayering on the fly, then it is at an extremely low quality, as the native DS hardware won't support a high quality RT debayer based on the SDK.

Also - SCRATCH renders at this point would probably be slightly higher quality then REDCINE renders. Although much of the underlying render code is similar, the build of SCRATCH that is currently available to users is a few months ahead of REDCINE 3.18.

Best,

Lucas
Click to expand...
Apologies Lucas, by on the fly, I meant it will link in the files without transcoding them to .gen files. Of course to play them back realtime, you need to render at some point. Or, as you correctly stated, you can capture and make .gen files at the start of the whole thing. I guess it all depends on what the word "is" is:) I was kind of in a rush when I wrote that. Thanks for the opportunity for clarification.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Niiiiiiice!!!!

Did you do any comparative test between DS and REDCINE / Scratch debayer?
Does DS convert the files in the background to DPX to work with or does it do debayer "on the fly"?

Long live DS!

Patrick
Click to expand...

DS does not convert the files to DPX. It either imports them to its native file format or links to R3D files which means they can be accessed on the fly.

Linked files don't play back in real time but can be jogged or played back at slow speed. They can also be rendered on the timeline which will make them real time. You don't have to render entire R3D files, just the section that's actually on the timeline.
 
HDhead said:
DS does not convert the files to DPX. It either imports them to its native file format or links to R3D files which means they can be accessed on the fly.

Linked files don't play back in real time but can be jogged or played back at slow speed. They can also be rendered on the timeline which will make them real time. You don't have to render entire R3D files, just the section that's actually on the timeline.
Click to expand...
Correct, and linking them in is immediate. Once you've checked the conform, you can drop into proxy mode or keep everything full res and send off a background render, or have half the files rendering local and the other half sent to a background process. I looked at Patricks original email as asking: does DS have to work with another 3rd party format, like the old style workflow. It's kind of a hybrid now, meaning you can start with R3D to quickly check things and later render out .gen media for realtime playback.
 
luki said:
R3D files are imported to .gen files using the SDK, and then the .gen files are what are used within the DS timeline.
Click to expand...

Hi Lucas,

As Michael has already explained, this isn't necessarily the case. DS can link directly to the .r3d files with no conversion to .gen files required until/unless you want to play in RT on the Timeline.

This means that a multi-layered complex offline edit from MC can be instantly conformed at full resolution on the DS timeline where you can grade it, composite it etc.

A good workflow can be to have the Red footage processed up as .gen files in the background by other cpus, while on the main DS Workstation you are confirming the accuracy of the conform and starting an initial grade - instantly.

We'll have to have a beer at NAB - you going to Yolies?

Regards,
Tone :)
 
Forrest said:
The transcoding happens within MetaFuze. As for color control, you have ISO, Chroma, Black Level and you can load an RSX file. I'm trying to figure out how to link a screenshot for you. Let me poke through the faqs and see if I can figure it out.

Forrest
Post Box Post
Click to expand...

Thanks man. So....if you just want to transcode offline files for the editor, you could do a basic primary grade on the footage from within metafuze (or RedAlert and use the rsx file then in metafuze), then the editor uses the newly generated MXF-wrapped files to do the offline.

Then, will the editor's EDL, when sent to the final color grading facility (NOT DS, but Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, etc.) conform properly, allowing the colorist to work from the .r3d again, on a non-DS color grading system? i can only assume so, but wanted to ask, as I am interested in using metafuze solely as a way to generate dailies for AVID editors.
 
David Morgan said:
So does this handle audio as well? If we record to the camera will Metafuze transfer that audio as well?
Click to expand...

Hi David,

This release of Metafuze doesn't transcode the audio, no. You'd use red Rushes or similar to extract the audio and post-sync in MC.

Audio is slated for the next Metafuze drop which shouldn't be too far away.

Regards,
Tone :)
 
Chris Parker said:
Then, will the editor's EDL, when sent to the final color grading facility (NOT DS, but Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, etc.) conform properly, allowing the colorist to work from the .r3d again, on a non-DS color grading system?
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

It certainly should do - Metafuze uses the same tape and file naming conventions that everyone else uses, but I'm not sure how well that would carry across in an 8 character EDL. I believe I recently saw a link for 16 (or was it 12?) character EDLs for MC, so perhaps that would be the workflow, but I really don't know for sure.

If the grading system can read an AAF then it would work for sure.

Obviously, Avid have designed this workflow to be streamlined with their own product family, so unlike an EDL, an AFE from MC to DS carries everything including titling, keys etc.

Regards,
Tone :)
 
Tony Quinsee-Jover said:
As Michael has already explained, this isn't necessarily the case. DS can link directly to the .r3d files with no conversion to .gen files required until/unless you want to play in RT on the Timeline.
Click to expand...

Ok... so you can link to R3D files for conform, which is cool. But for any dailies output, color work, or realtime playback on a timeline, the file must be converted to DS's internal .gen format.

(and I'll probably make my standard appearance at Yolie's to hang out for a bit. ; ) )

Lucas
 
For now, the realtime performance is not where it needs to be for real time output. As Lucas has mentioned on other forums, the SDK is not quite up to par for that type of performance. DS is not designed to be a dailies generation tool - it is an editorial, finishing and mastering. So certainly the conform is one of the strongest appeals of the system when offlining in Media Composer as all those layers, VFX, titles, etc come across. So while realtime playback of R3D is the goal and will get there over time, once you get into layers, complex VFX, etc, the real time playback gets diminished anyway and since one cannot render back to R3D, a render will need to happen to some format - be it .gen, DPX, DNxHD, etc. The only issue with renders to another format due to the nature of RAW is that some color space needs to be defined at that time. So now managing that across different spans, elements, etc, becomes more complex -

So in the end, a great conform directly pointing to R3D source - confirm conform via scroll, drag, etc, then transcode timeline with handles to eventual desired output for color space etc, and render performance is not a bad thing at all - certainly with the current state of the SDK. It only gets better over time - last week there was as nothing like this... ;)

Add to this all the lovely metadata rentention... you can imagine where this might go.


Michael
 
Here is a graphic of Avid's workflow. Red through MetaFuze to Composer/Symphony - Composer/Symphony to DS through AFE. MetaFuze creates the video media, Composer/Symphony creates the AFE. DS relinks or captures from the Red files. Then DS out to .DPX, .Cin, tape etc, if you want to work on additional systems (Baselight, da Vinci, etc.)
View attachment 11050
 
Tony Quinsee-Jover said:
Hi Chris,

It certainly should do - Metafuze uses the same tape and file naming conventions that everyone else uses, but I'm not sure how well that would carry across in an 8 character EDL. I believe I recently saw a link for 16 (or was it 12?) character EDLs for MC, so perhaps that would be the workflow, but I really don't know for sure.

If the grading system can read an AAF then it would work for sure.

Obviously, Avid have designed this workflow to be streamlined with their own product family, so unlike an EDL, an AFE from MC to DS carries everything including titling, keys etc.

Regards,
Tone :)
Click to expand...
Here is the link to Avid's helper apps, including the 16 character EDL Template for Composer. When you get there, click on the tab marked "Avid Resources". http://www.avid.com/red/
 
Avid has a trial version of the DS software. Currently it's v10, with 10.1.1(Red Version) coming soon. It runs on PC or Mac(under Bootcamp) and has all the functionality, except you cannot - Capture/Output, save projects for use in a fully licensed DS, or save presets for use in a fully licensed DS. You can only save in 4:2:2. Other than that, it has all the same tools a full blown DS has. It runs under some pretty basic configurations, but of course, the faster the CPU the better. Here is the link http://www.avid.com/products/DS/
Here is where you will find MetaFuze http://www.avid.com/metafuze/
 
luki said:
Ok... so you can link to R3D files for conform, which is cool. But for any dailies output, color work, or realtime playback on a timeline, the file must be converted to DS's internal .gen format.

(and I'll probably make my standard appearance at Yolie's to hang out for a bit. ; ) )

Lucas
Click to expand...

This is also true of all other DI systems that directly support R3D through the SDK. For example, Pablo must import the files first before they can be played back in real time (or worked on).

Film Master also needs to import the files although they can be colored and worked on even before they are fully imported--kind of how DS links to R3D files.
 
Chris Parker said:
e.

Then, will the editor's EDL, when sent to the final color grading facility (NOT DS, but Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, etc.) conform properly, allowing the colorist to work from the .r3d again, on a non-DS color grading system? i can only assume so, but wanted to ask, as I am interested in using metafuze solely as a way to generate dailies for AVID editors.
Click to expand...

This functionality has already been in place for a while. EDL is usually not the best way to get the sequence across but many times it is the only way when going cross platform.
 
Forrest said:
Avid has a trial version of the DS software. Currently it's v10, with 10.1.1(Red Version) coming soon. It runs on PC or Mac(under Bootcamp) and has all the functionality
Click to expand...

Forrest, I have been trying unsuccessfully for weeks to run DS 10 under bootcamp on a MBP (current version). I don't believe this is possible. Yet, I still pray someone will prove me wrong.

Anyone?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top