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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

avid mxf red workflow

hey Chris
I'm pretty sure DV only allows a framerate of 25 or 29.97 in the spec.
that's probably the problem right there.....
that's why i'm talking about the TC24 column to track back the timecode to the original 23.98 source. It can be done. It used to be done with film/digibeta style transfers so this should be OK also.

Can I suggest a new thread?
jamfuze has run it's course (for now...) and "Cutting SD DV for 23.98 Reconform" is much more correct and will enable people who know about this stuff to chime in!
Don't worry I'll start a new JamFuze thread when it's all available.
Chris it sounds like you need me to work out the DV offline cutting thing Quick!
j
 
Chris Parker said:
hey michael. i am trying to put DV25 files i have made through Red Rushes export and then AVID import into 23.976 NTSC formatted AVID project, but the clips, when played, have a timebase of 29.97. I would like to cut in 23.98/NTSC, with these DV25 MXF clips. What I am doing wrong? Go easy, I am an absolute AVID novice...
Click to expand...

The ALE needs to be made in MetaCheater in order to do the TC 29.97 conversion. Once the ALE is imported, highlight the START column and do a CMD-D and select TC24. The values will be calculated back to their original TC24 value. Of course burn-ins will be wrong since they don't take the 30fps TC into consideration. See some of my worklfow docs on www.24p.com


Michael
 
Ok. I got DV25 working at 23.98. I create ALE with metacheater at 1080 23.98. I then put ale into avid bin with project format set to 1080 23.98. Then BEFORE batch importing I switch the project format to NTSC 23.98. Then set my batch import settings to dv25 and import. The new clips come in as dv25 and I can view them proper in a 23.98 timeline. (ie. The timecode matches that in redcine). All thanks to a kind soul BTW.

I am just looking to confirm that the edl will conform properly later.

Also....am I supposed to have .mov in the filenames when exporting metadata from metacheater.
 
Yes, you will have the .mov name in the files from MetaCheater. The Name column needs to match for the file import.

MetaCheater it to be used when creating an ALE as 30fps to be imported into a NTSC 23.976 project since it compensates for the 24 within 30fps world. Switching projects does not do that for EDL creation. Step through the video and look at the START timecode above the monitor - it will be different. Doing the duplicate column into the TC24 will have the wrong starting point for the conversion. You would need to copy/paste each clip on a per clip basis to do a copy without conversion. 30fps projets types of 24fos material is its own thing and mimics the process that has been in place since 1992. True 24fps editing only happens in HD sine HD supports a 24 frame native frame rate and timecode (as well as 23.976 - using the shorthand version of 24).

One thing to try, is editing at NTSC then flipping the project back to 1080p/23.976 and try an EDL -

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
Step through the video and look at the START timecode above the monitor - it will be different. Doing the duplicate column into the TC24 will have the wrong starting point for the conversion. You would need to copy/paste each clip on a per clip basis to do a copy without conversion. 30fps projets types of 24fos material is its own thing and mimics the process that has been in place since 1992. True 24fps editing only happens in HD sine HD supports a 24 frame native frame rate and timecode (as well as 23.976 - using the shorthand version of 24).

One thing to try, is editing at NTSC then flipping the project back to 1080p/23.976 and try an EDL -

Michael
Click to expand...

michael. you kind of lost me there. i have made an edl with my project settings as they are, and the in and out points seem to be accurate based on the source timecode i check from within REDCine. also, the timecode i see above the monitor is the same as the start timecode in both the 'Start' column in my bin AND the first frame of the same clip in REDCine. All seems to match, so I don't know where my problem is....

Sorry, but could you explain in more detail what my problem will be with the way I have done things??
 
ok. so i tried to switch back to 1080p/23.976 and exported an EDL. i am pretty novice at AVID, so I am not sure how to now check to see if my EDL will conform properly when sent to the color facility. is there way i can check this on the AVID? the reliability of the EDL that is.....thanks for the help so far michael....
 
The EDL should match the burn-ins you see in the timeline.

Michael
 
i must admit, i am pretty confused about this one. here is what i did, in a step-by-step summary:

1. transcode .r3d files in red rushes to 640 X 480 with stretch set (editor wanted DV25 anamorphic files to edit with). transcoded into QT, DNxHD 36.
2. load these transcoded QT's into metacheater.
3. in settings window, set to 23.98 and hd 1080. did nothing on the main page in the lower right corner (24 to 30, etc. area). saved this ALE.
4. open media composer. set project to 1080p 23.98. load ALE into bin.
***5. switch project format back to NTSC 23.98.
6. batch import all clips in bin from ALE at DV25 codec.
7. AVID now makes MXF media. this is useable by media composer and when i play the clips, the timecode display above where the clips play is in a 23.98 timebase, and matches the .r3d files' timecodes in REDCine.

so...have i done something wrong? will the EDL that is exported by the editor's AVID after the cut is done work properly when loaded into the colorist's suite? is there a better, more rock solid step-by-step that you could give me to get the editor DV25 clips to cut with that WILL work downstream during conform??

As per Jamie's suggestion, I am going to make this it's own thread.....
 
jamfuze update

jamfuze update

hello
there is a new video on

www.jamieparry.demon.co.uk

jamfuze now does avid offline STANDARD DEF resolutions
15:1s, 10:1 and 4:1m have been done
tested at 25fps and all work fine.
I *think* 10:1 and others also work fine at 23.976 (wheras i can't figure dv out for americans....at 25fps its fine)
so you could cut on a low spec system at 10:1 (Which looks surprisingly good out of a mojo onto a Television!) and then jamfuze after an edl to 1080 DNxHD 175X (yes it does 10 bit now!)
i'll test this properly next week but i think it works.
DV just wants to be 25 or 29.97 and i can't get my thing to do what i want with the Tc 24 column (grrrrrr)
so as an alternative 10:1 might be a way for lower spec/home systems to be happy.

Also done (but not shown) Smokeyfuze online now outputs either 1920x1080 DPX or 2k DPX or 4K DPX with the filenames of the dpx's representing the timecode.
Right. Hands up who wants to learn some unix for video people? What? Alll of you? Ok.....
this bit of unix will let you input a frame number and turn it into a timecode-anytime you want.
You will need textedit to be A PLAIN TEXT EDITOR no rtf or html nonsense. google it and come back.
OK?
you'll need a .bash_profile file (which is just a text file) if you don't know what it is you'll probably have to make one. I did because on OS X we don't get a file called .bash_profile by default. We have to make it. In other flavours of unix its there out of the box.
So to make it
open Terminal (that is found in Applications/utilities)
Then type this (or copy/paste whatever)

touch ~/.bash_profile

touch is the command to make a file.
the squiggle (called a tilde) is your home directory and then the file you make lives in there. it's got a dot before it so it will be INVISIBLE (spooooky)

next in the terminal type or copy this

open ~/.bash_profile

this will open the new .bash_profile in TEXTEDIT (which is now a PLAIN TEXT EDITOR RIGHT???)

copy and paste the stuff below until the end } into your empty .bash_profile file

tcm() {
echo "how many frames"
read framecount
echo "what frame rate 25 or 24"
read framerate
divhours=$(( 3600 * $framerate ))
divmins=$(( 60 * $framerate ))

hours=`expr "$framecount" / $divhours `
remh=`expr "$framecount" % $divhours `
mins=`expr "$remh" / $divmins `
remm=`expr "$remh" % $divmins `
secs=`expr "$remm" / $framerate`
frames=`expr "$remm" % $framerate`
hh=`printf "%02d\n" "$hours"`
mm=`printf "%02d\n" "$mins"`
ss=`printf "%02d\n" "$secs"`
ff=`printf "%02d\n" "$frames"`
echo $hh":"$mm":"$ss":"$ff

}


just the above stuff OK???????
Save and quit textedit
quit the terminal
re launch the terminal (this is so it finds your new file)

in the terminal type tcm
it will ask you "how many frames"
you type any number you like
it will then ask what frame rate 24 or 25?
you answer
it will then display the timecode
you will be amazed that you did this.
and you can alter it (it's just a text file dude)
add this lot to .bash_profile and you can do frames>timecode with the command tcf

tcf() {
echo "what timecode?"
read framecount
echo $framecount > framecount
frames=`awk 'BEGIN { FS = ":" } ; { print $4 }' framecount `
seconds=`awk 'BEGIN { FS = ":" } ; { print $3 }' framecount `
minutes=`awk 'BEGIN { FS = ":" } ; { print $2 }' framecount `
hours=`awk 'BEGIN { FS = ":" } ; { print $1 }' framecount `

echo "what frame rate 25 or 24"
read framerate
ff=`expr "$frames" \* 1 `
ss=`expr "$seconds" \* "$framerate" `
mm=`expr "$minutes" \* "$framerate" \* 60`
hh=`expr "$hours" \* "$framerate" \* 3600`

totalf=$(( $hh + $mm + $ss + $ff ))
echo $totalf


}


and more......
paste this in to the file .bash_profile (it will be in your "recent" file list in textedit.)
it will let you rename LOADS of files all in one go i use it to change the extension .MOD to .MPG so my machine can play them

jren() {
echo "what do yo want to rename"
read oldname
echo "what do you want it named TO"
read newname
for file in *.$oldname
do
mv "$file" "${file%.$oldname}.$newname"
done
}

save and quit text edit
quit and relaunch terminal
type cd then space and then drag the folder where your files are into the terminal window. this is to Change Directory into the folder you want
type jren

it will ask you what you want to rename
you type (for example) MOD (not .MOD don't do the dot)
then it will ask what you want to change it to
you type (for example) MPG
all .MOD will be changed to .MPG
this works across the network and is free and YOU wrote it!!!!!

essentially all of jamfuze could be done like this so you set up some defaults somewhere in a text file for things like where the R3D files would be,where you would want them to go etc etc this would be the same for a 6 week shoot.
you could type "rushes"
and jamfuze would do the rest.
cool huh?
just givin somethin back.
Stuart Cunningham has been helping me and I think he wants me to teach people to fish not just give them a salmon.....
cheers
j
 
Last edited:
The resolutions you refer to doing are interlace data rates. If shooting progressive, you should be creating 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 14:1, 28:1, or 35:1 as the JFIF codecs as well as the DV progressive based ones.

Michael
 
missing something???

missing something???

hello tim
nope.
you're not missing anything
on the website is just videos showing what the current (development) version of jamfuze can do
watch the vids
if it sounds like something you'd like, stay tuned and when it's available i'll post here.
it'll be on Kagi for about $49
I was the original developer (but i'm a colourist really) so development has been taken over by proper programmers to do a nice GUI and error trapping and a manual etc etc etc
I hope they'll get it out soon....
cheers
j
 
interlaced rates...

interlaced rates...

MichaelP
avid offline res 10:1 4:1m 15:1s are interlaced rates...
yeah i kinda thought that.....
but it works and no one's died so i'll let it go for now.
do you know if the 10:1 will work at 23.976 ( i've only tried it at 25fps as the guys who asked for it are in New Zealand.)
DV is too hard for my little brain to work out! just stay with dnxhd 36 people!!! its ace! that's why i did that first.
all the offline avid stuff has come from the back of the ingex project
i don't think those guys have really dealt with "p" stuff
like i say though it all seems to work and looks OK out of a mojo.....
i'll contact them ingex boys and see what they say about adding support for those resolutions you mentioned.
j
jeez it's late i got to go to bed.
 
Last edited:
unfortunately for us USA'ers alot of client request DV25 because they are scared of changing workflows or whatever to use DNx36. so any help with direct JAMFuzery™ to DV25.mxf would be the beez balls!
 
jamie parry said:
MichaelP
avid offline res 10:1 4:1m 15:1s are interlaced rates...
yeah i kinda thought that.....
but it works and no one's died so i'll let it go for now.
do you know if the 10:1 will work at 23.976 QUOTE]

It will work for 25fps, but not for 23.976fps or 24fps.

Michael
Click to expand...
 
I'm glad that JamFuze will be for 25fps, also.

I don't understand why Avid doesn't develop such a tool for Mac, maybe because of licenses with Red ? But they have support for DS...
Or maybe Avid could pay some guys like you.
After such a long time I would have expected more support from Avid for the Red workflow.

cheers
 
MetaFuze is derived from the import and parser code of Avid DS which is a PC only product. While there are plans over time to create a Mac version, it is not in a time frame that can be discussed. Every company has to deal with resources and priorities for all the markets they serve. Avid is not alone in making those types of decisions. RED themselves have not provided REDline or the QuickTime components for the Windows platform which would open up all the same solutions available for Mac for the PC. The DNxHD codec is also licenseable by third parties to integrate into their products.

All manufacturers are working hard to provide solutions as fast as possible with a technology that can change on a monthly basis.

Michael
 
questions from an idiot brit...

questions from an idiot brit...

hello everyone
today in my JamFuze Laboratory i did this.....
made dv 411 mxf at 29.97 from redline/ffmpeg
figured out the math to make the "start column" be the 29.97 start (so copying it to tc 24 in a matchback project gets back to the right 23.976 timecode)
that all worked OK

however when stepping through, a few frames in, the tc 24 timecode drifts out from the timecode on the burn ins. it is never out by more than 1 frame but is this normal?
The DV i've made seems to repeat fields every 5th frame or so and i think this is why.
does the avid get rid of these frames in its own "import" or "capture" process?
so assuming that a 1 frame difference is OK anyway....
How do you get from a 30i matchback project into a 1080p 23.976 project to relink footage?
I couldn't do it at all....

on a more positive note DV at 25fps was easy!!
on a weird note
despite MichaelP's warnings of doom I decided to try my 10:1 mxf stuff in a 23.976 project
and if you do it from media tool (not ale) it all works and relinks fine to 23.976 DNxHD175.
there probably is a "gotcha" somewhere but it seems to work guys!
i'll do a video tomorrow but in the meantime how would a 10:1 mxf standard def edit work on xpress pro for relinking later in a symphony or media composer 3.5?
just askin.

the online bit now includes dnx115/120 as an online res

smokeyfuze online
now does 4k DPX,2k DPX and 1920x1080 DPX with the filenames representing the timecode.
j
 
AVID drops the 0 and 5th frames to compensate for the SD NTSC 23.976 project in what is essentially a 29.97 timebase as far as AVID is concerned.
Michael is really the expert on this and will jump in i'm sure.
 
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