Average Hours

[Jordan Buck]

Hey Guys,

I am about to purchase a second hand Epic, and the difference in price doesn't seem to reflect the hours on the bodies.
How much do the hours really affect the performance, is it all down to how they have been treated in general... is there a shelf life?
Is there an amount that I should avoid once its gone past...

any info appreciated.

Thanks,

Jordan

 

[Mark Phelan]

Well they're not cars, so the wear and tear tends to be different. Hours can be a measure, but what kind of hours are they? Were they always in a nice studio, meticulously maintained? Or were they out in Afghanistan or filming by saltwater being thrown into the back of an ATV as they dodge bullets? As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.

My camera is very well maintained compared to others I've seen out there. I tend to be that way with certain types of gear. Some however beat them like a borrowed mule.

 

[Ted Parkes]

+1 on Marks comment.. And as long as it was never a rental. You might want to check out the website / Reel if the person selling the camera.. Might give you a look into the conditions the camera has been exposed to. That said I have had my camera in some extreme situations but took every precaution to make sure the camera wasn't being abused.

 

[Stephen Williams]

The clock has been reset by RED twice on my Epic M, once when the heat sync & other updates occurred & again last week with the Dragon update. So I would not pay any more for a low hours camera, it means very little.

 

[D Anderson]

You see sellers all the time ask for tiny TINY discounts on their used gear.

For me a camera/gear has to be discounted by a good margin for me to forego a fresh camera and MUCH more importantly a full warranty from RED. Now if the discount is high enough then I can forego the warranty. It seems camera gear asking price is higher than most other things one might sell...however I`m not sure how much sells at these high asking prices and/or how quickly it sells.

People exclaim 10 to 15% off like its a bargain!

 

[Troy Bakewell]

I agree 100%.

You see sellers all the time ask for tiny TINY discounts on their used gear.

For me a camera/gear has to be discounted by a good margin for me to forego a fresh camera and MUCH more importantly a full warranty from RED. Now if the discount is high enough then I can forego the warranty. It seems camera gear asking price is higher than most other things one might sell...however I`m not sure how much sells at these high asking prices and/or how quickly it sells.

People exclaim 10 to 15% off like its a bargain!

 

[D Anderson]

And I do think Camera hours matter...they matter a LOT!

Yes, one can not rule out the possibilities of a low hour camera spending those hours in rough conditions. BUT the chances of a high hour camera being abused is OBVIOUSLY much, much higher.

So clearly "mileage" should lower the price.

The only person I can see saying hours don't matter is someone who is selling (or going to be selling) a high hour camera.

A high hour camera should cost less.

 

[Jordan Buck]

Surely if there are any issues though RED will pick up on this when you do the handover right? does that involve an inspection/service?

 

[D Anderson]

Surely if there are any issues though RED will pick up on this when you do the handover right? does that involve an inspection/service?

Same as a car - an inspection says its ok one day but soon after something breaks. A new car comes with a 3 year warranty. An inspection warranty is short for a reason. Doesn't mean the inspection was wrong if a camera goes bad soon after - clearly an older, higher hour camera is more likely to have issues.

Don't know why that needs said even it is so obvious.

If RED gave a years warranty after an inspection I`d buy used.

 

[D Fuller]

Same as a car - an inspection says its ok one day but soon after something breaks. A new car comes with a 3 year warranty. An inspection warranty is short for a reason. Doesn't mean the inspection was wrong if a camera goes bad soon after - clearly an older, higher hour camera is more likely to have issues.

Don't know why that needs said even it is so obvious.

If RED gave a years warranty after an inspection I`d buy used.

Nonsense.

The analogy to a car is just silly. These cameras are computers, not machines. They fail in very different ways, and on very different schedules.

While I agree that the warranty after an inspection by Red is too short, the reality is that most things that will go wrong with a Red camera will show up in the first three months to a year -- just like all computer electronics. Once you are past that time (and most used cameras fall into that category) they tend to be quite reliable for years.

That is not to say that no one will ever have trouble with a used Epic, but the chances of having trouble are much greater with a new camera. A used camera that has been reliable is likely to continue to be reliable.

So what should you pay attention to? You should want to know if the camera has been a rental, and if so, where, and what kind of service it got there. You should be asking about whether it has been back to Red for service, and what kind of service. (That will tell you a lot about whether it has had trouble early in its life, because nobody else does critical service o these cameras.) And if you decide to buy it, you should pay attention during the first three months you own it, when it is under warranty.

Nothing is without risk. And if you are so risk-adverse that you are uncomfortable buying a camera that has been looked over and QC'd by Red, you should buy a new camera and pay for Red Armor. But saving 10% or 15% is real money, even on a Scarlet. It's enough to buy a set of Rokinon Cine lenses. Combined with Red Armor, a lot more. If you are generally comfortable buying used gear, buying a used Red can be a very good way to stretch your budget.

And to answer the OP's question, If it passes Red's QC, I personally would not worry about the camera's hours at all. I'd be much more concerned that the screw threads haven't been abused.

 

[D Fuller]

Hey Guys,

I am about to purchase a second hand Epic, and the difference in price doesn't seem to reflect the hours on the bodies.
How much do the hours really affect the performance, is it all down to how they have been treated in general... is there a shelf life?
Is there an amount that I should avoid once its gone past...

any info appreciated.

Thanks,

Jordan

No, there is no "sell by" date. And hours of operation don't adversely affect the camera's ability to perform in any way that I can see. Red's inspection is important, because they will be looking at things you can't see without taking the camera apart, but yes, it really is all down to how the camera has been treated in general.

That said, you should feel good about the camera you are buying, and you should feel good about the deal you are making. If you are not comfortable with the camera, or the warranty, or whatever, step back and review. It may just be hat you are nervous, but it may be your gut is telling you something you ought to listen to. I buy a lot of used gear, (including a very early Red One that has been great) and have never been burned. But if I'm not sure I'm getting a fair deal, I don't do it.

good luck to you.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Have to agree with David here, also hours matter even less with the MX going in for the Dragon upgrade, since the hours go bad to ZERO once Dragon Sensor is installed.

In all I have Brokered a great deal of cameras till few years ago, and I have seen hours form as few as few hundreds to as many as few thousands, and all worked out great, years later and this cameras are still going strong.

So again, hours matter little, yet of course if I was to buy a used one, I would still prefer to buy one with few hundred hours vs. one wit few thousands one.

 

[D Fuller]

Yes, Ketch is kind of the authority on used Red cameras. He really is the voice of experience.


For me - I'd buy the one that looked like it had been babied.

 

[Alex Kiritz]

You see sellers all the time ask for tiny TINY discounts on their used gear.

For me a camera/gear has to be discounted by a good margin for me to forego a fresh camera and MUCH more importantly a full warranty from RED. Now if the discount is high enough then I can forego the warranty. It seems camera gear asking price is higher than most other things one might sell...however I`m not sure how much sells at these high asking prices and/or how quickly it sells.

People exclaim 10 to 15% off like its a bargain!

I've seen used stuff priced halfway in between Red's retail and education prices. Makes no sense.

 

[D Anderson]

Nonsense.

The analogy to a car is just silly. These cameras are computers, not machines.

Computers stay in houses and offices. Cameras are taken on the road (no pun intended) - If your camera has more hours there is the high possibility it has been in less than ideal conditions more often than a low hour camera. The car analogy isn't far off...more miles equals more wear and tear.

Should RED just remove the camera timer on the next firmware release? No, cause plenty people want to know how long in the tooth the camera is BECAUSE IT MATTERS.

Used prices are just out to lunch for high hour cameras.

 

[Martin Weiss]

When I buy a used camera, the hours would be of minor matter to me. I'd be much more concerned about *how* the camera was used *where* and by *whom* under which circumstances. A low hour camera might have traveled the world, exposed to dust and rain, yet only used a few minutes each shooting day. A high hour camera might have been used in only one location, filming long interviews.

No one knows more about the performance of used cameras than Ketch. I'd take his word any day of the millennium.

 

[ericyoung]

Computers stay in houses and offices. Cameras are taken on the road (no pun intended) - If your camera has more hours there is the high possibility it has been in less than ideal conditions more often than a low hour camera. The car analogy isn't far off...more miles equals more wear and tear.

Should RED just remove the camera timer on the next firmware release? No, cause plenty people want to know how long in the tooth the camera is BECAUSE IT MATTERS.

Used prices are just out to lunch for high hour cameras.

Given two Epic cameras in the exact same cosmetic condition at the same price - sure I would tend to go for the lower hours.

However, there are still Red One cameras with thousands of hours going strong today. Some cameras never leave a studio environment. Hours is one of the least important buying considerations really. Which is exactly why there isn't much discount for higher hours on used Red cameras. IF hours are important to you, then just wait until one comes up with low hours.

 

[Jordan Buck]

Thank you every one for your answers,
I have decided to be vigilant on the hours but not to obsessed over them.

I am pretty comfortable buying second hand gear and have done previously, but this camera purchase is a big one so im being super critical of myself and what I buy.

I guess as long as I don't get a dud which if its been tried and tested for 300+ hours I should be pretty solid after red have checked it as well.

 

[D Anderson]

Seems there are some people who don't see age of camera as concern. While enough people are in this mindset the heavy use cameras will continue to sell at close to low hour camera prices.

 

[Brian Merlen]

food for thought:

a 90 day warranty sucks. i had a board die in my scarlet months and months after my 90 day ran out. insurance wont cover normal wear and tear on boards, so I took the hit. then upgraded to Epic, now I got a year warranty at least.

my point is though, unless the savings are significant I'd buy new if I could do it all again. and buy that extended warranty too while your at it! not just a red thing too, I'd want to buy new on an Arri also unless the discount to get used seems significant enough to warrant it.