Avatar Sequels no longer on Red?

[Karim D. Ghantous]

many shows will switch to the Alexa LF,

It's possible, for sure, but I am skeptical. It's big, heavy and expensive, and it doesn't have the lens choices that most cameras have. Shoot film instead, for goodness' sake. And the older 3.2K (2.5K actual) Alexas are serving their users just fine, apparently. Why would you move to the LF if you're happy with the old one? It makes no sense. It's actually going BACKWARDS, not forwards. Images will be nice but they won't be worth it. We will see what people choose.

My bet: Gemini is going to be the number one choice for commercial DPs. Not Monstro, not Helium. You'd have to be in denial to use anything else, quite frankly.

 

[Savannah Miller]

It's possible, for sure, but I am skeptical. It's big, heavy and expensive, and it doesn't have the lens choices that most cameras have. Shoot film instead, for goodness' sake. And the older 3.2K (2.5K actual) Alexas are serving their users just fine, apparently. Why would you move to the LF if you're happy with the old one? It makes no sense. It's actually going BACKWARDS, not forwards. Images will be nice but they won't be worth it. We will see what people choose.

My bet: Gemini is going to be the number one choice for commercial DPs. Not Monstro, not Helium. You'd have to be in denial to use anything else, quite frankly.

TV shows generally budget is not an issue. Especially Netflix. Size/weight is generally not a problem either as a lot of shows have no issue with Alexa 65. You have to use Alexa LF for Netflix or Amazon shows that mandate 4K acquisition, although Amazon is a little more relaxed and does allow the older 3.4K Alexa to be used.

I do agree that Gemini is the best RED camera. The average person don't need 6-8K aquisition or really care about it. Gemini ticks so many other boxes and the images look great. But I do think for TV/Film production, the Alexa still does fit better into a lot of industry workflows, and the prores out of the Alexa is the gold standard of image for a reason.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Personally for what I like to do, I would love to have the Monstro.

If I was in the trenches, I do think the Gemini is the camera that is really making a lot of sense.

Helium is great.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I think we should make a list of all the best cinematography nominated films shot with RED as a principle camera. It's misleading because on the RED site they list so many shows/movies where other cameras where principal.

Is ASC Award cool enough ?




https://vimeo.com/204215471


http://www.gorkagomezandreu.com/portfolio_page/house-of-others/



Shot on Epic MX.


Oh yeah...A-list festival award, Georgian application for Oscar in international category...and we got a bunch of awards across the globe...

 

[Savannah Miller]

Is ASC Award cool enough ?




https://vimeo.com/204215471


http://www.gorkagomezandreu.com/portfolio_page/house-of-others/



Shot on Epic MX.


Oh yeah...A-list festival award, Georgian application for Oscar in international category...and we got a bunch of awards across the globe...

Well to be fair Spotlight award is like an lower-tier award for smaller films. There's less competition due to budgets of said films and it's not on the level of an Oscar.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

I think we should make a list of all the best cinematography nominated films shot with RED as a principle camera. It's misleading because on the RED site they list so many shows/movies where other cameras where principal.

The weakminded are constantly "mislead" by misread information. Deluded.
8K stays 8K, 16 stops stays 16 stops - film list or not...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well to be fair Spotlight award is like an lower-tier award for smaller films. There's less competition due to budgets of said films and it's not on the level of an Oscar.

Immature mindsets tend to cling on to external confirmation of value to compensate the lack of the ability to perceive it by themselves.

Where the resulting undervaluing principle in the mindset's modality is likely to manifest in different forms of unappreciation.

 

[Misha Engel]

Immature mindsets tend to cling on to external confirmation of value to compensate the lack of the ability to perceive it by themselves.

Where undervaluing principle in the mindset's modality is likely to manifest in different forms of unappreciation.

Well said....
The question remains, "why isn't RED used in oscar winning feature films?".

A couple of answers might be:
- No one has ever been fired for using Alexa (brand loyalty)
- Film is shot on film (Nolan, Tarantino, etc...).
- Sony has deeper pockets
- The higher the resolution(8k) the higher the rolling shutter
- Service
- ...


RED is making great camera's in my opinion but they are doing something wrong in their PR and Marketing(listen to and understand what possible users (might) want (in the near future)), talk to people in the industry from whom is known that they don't like or hate RED and try to understand why. You can only solve problems(the industry not using RED) when you stop denying there is a problem.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well said....
The question remains, "why isn't RED used in oscar winning feature films?".

Already answered on this forum a bunch of times.

Factors are many but mostly due to:

A) product design which is not optimal for typical cinema workflow (wider market, multi-purpose usage, single operator approach)
B) Arri heritage, specialization and image philosophy closer to film aesthetic (texture feel & saturation capacity over pixel count and ultra detail)

 

[Misha Engel]

Already answered on this forum a bunch of times.

Factors are many but mostly due to:

A) product design which is not optimal for typical cinema workflow (wider market, multi-purpose usage, single operator approach)
B) Arri heritage, specialization and image philosophy closer to film aesthetic (texture feel & saturation capacity over pixel count and ultra detail)

A) Well an IMAX film camera is also not optimal, same counts for S35 film. A DMSC2 is about the same size as an Alexa Mini and they are used often.
B) This thread is about Avatar shot on Sony.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

A) Well an IMAX film camera is also not optimal, same counts for S35 film. A DMSC2 is about the same size as an Alexa Mini and they are used often.
B) This thread is about Avatar shot on Sony.

You asked a general question on Oscar films, mostly shot on Alexas.

A) IMAX film camera is a special case for those rare with luxury to afford this workflow. DSMC has black shading, higher compression and top fixed touch screen annoying for ACs. Among other things. And not Arri heritage and image philosophy as a basis.

B)
- Cameron's long year Sony co-operation & support
- Rolling shutter
- Sony 16 bit raw
- Built in ND's
- Camera sensor block customization for 3D workflow
- Venice image performance and aesthetic to them feels best for their project
- Etc

 

[Misha Engel]

Some good points Hrvoje and also some RED should be able to do something about.
When the community wants better camera's from RED we have to be critical about the things that are not liked.

DSMC2 is pretty good but DSMC3 has to be better (and I have no doubt it will be).

 

[Marc Wielage]

Already answered on this forum a bunch of times. Factors are many but mostly due to: A) product design which is not optimal for typical cinema workflow (wider market, multi-purpose usage, single operator approach); B) Arri heritage, specialization and image philosophy closer to film aesthetic (texture feel & saturation capacity over pixel count and ultra detail)

I worked on a project a few years ago with the ASC that was a panel discussion with 8 fairly-big cinematographers on dealing with "digital challenges in feature production" (some title like that). At the end of the panel, they were asked, "cost no object, what camera would you use?"

Every one of them answered "film cameras and Kodak 35mm negative." One of them may have said 65mm film.

BTW, bear in mind that if you go to the major independent camera rental houses (Keslow, Band Pro, Birns & Sawyer, AbelCine, SIM Digital, etc.), the cost difference between renting any major camera for a week is not that much. Red Dragon, Red Helium, Alexa, Sony, Panasonic Varicam, whatever... it's all in the same ballpark for a package rental. If you have a TV series where you need two camera bodies for 8 months a year, or a feature that needs cameras for 2-3 months, you're going to get a great deal regardless of what you want. All non-technical producers want to hear is 1) the camera rental cost will fit their budget, and 2) nobody from post is going to complain. They're all capable of great pictures.

I think Panavision has always been a little higher than everybody else, but they're competitive when they need to be. They used to have stock Red cameras, and I see that Alexa cameras are still available from Panavision if you want them. The Alexa 65 is only a rental directly from Arri, but I'm fairly certain that Alexa LF will be everywhere (if it isn't already).

 

[Savannah Miller]

As far as I know Sony is the only brand that records true 16-bit raw. Yes RED records 16-bit raw but do they use 16 bit a/d converters? You'd think they would advertise this as the only ones currently doing so are Sony.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

As far as I know Sony is the only brand that records true 16-bit raw. Yes RED records 16-bit raw but do they use 16 bit a/d converters? You'd think they would advertise this as the only ones currently doing so are Sony.

You'd think one could make up their mind between asking a question and a claim based on knowing the answer.

16 bit A/D is required to be able to quantize that DR.

 

[Misha Engel]

As far as I know Sony is the only brand that records true 16-bit raw. Yes RED records 16-bit raw but do they use 16 bit a/d converters? You'd think they would advertise this as the only ones currently doing so are Sony.

AXS-R7 has a recording format, X-OCN. This format support the high quality workflows at moderate bitrate. The system retains everything the sensor sees, delivering tonal gradation with 16-bit precision, ideal for High Dynamic Range (HDR) image grading and other cutting-edge workflows that require higher than 10-bit or 12-bit precision.

But it is also compressed and as we all know compression kills the picture.

(ARRI) AleveIII = 2 x 14 bits converted to 16 bits linear, converted to 12 bits log ARRIRAW
(BMD UMP) Fairchild = 2 x 11 bits converted to 16 bits linear, converted to 12 bits log CDNG (or extra compression with DCT 3:1, 4:1)
RED 1 x 16 bits, compressed with wavelet, converted to 12 bits log R3D (not sure)
Venice 1 x 16 bits, compressed with wavelet, 16 bits X-OCN (Sony kind of RAW)

Kinifinity 1 x ?? bits, compressed with wavelet (KiniRAW like Cineform RAW)

 

[Sabovic Adis]

8192(px)×4320(px)×24(fps)×12(bit)÷8(bits to bytes)÷1024(to KB)÷1024(to MB)÷5(comp. ratio) gives 243MB/s.
With 16 bit it's 324MB/s.
Redmags maxout at 300 MB/s afaik, hmmm...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I worked on a project a few years ago with the ASC that was a panel discussion with 8 fairly-big cinematographers on dealing with "digital challenges in feature production" (some title like that). At the end of the panel, they were asked, "cost no object, what camera would you use?"

Every one of them answered "film cameras and Kodak 35mm negative." One of them may have said 65mm film.

Yeah, and it is understandable why.

I recall a recent cinema experience where parts of the movie had great, rich tonal response and other poor and dull in comparison. It was not a separate graded creative look and the overall look was more or less matched and working intercut with no visual continuity issues for the audience. I opened imdb and tech specs confirmed my conclusions. Movie was shot on film and Alexa.

Another recent cinema experience was Quiet Place and in the first few shots with beautiful tonality and organicity it was obvious it was shot on film. And seeing who was the colorist...."uhm yeah that explains a lot".

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

RED 1 x 16 bits, compressed with wavelet, converted to 12 bits log R3D (not sure)
Venice 1 x 16 bits, compressed with wavelet, 16 bits X-OCN (Sony kind of RAW)

Redcode is variable compression, meaning bits per pixel are not fixed. And it goes to 16 bits.

X-OCN wavelet ? Do you have something official confirming that ?

 

[Björn Benckert]

All tech reasons aside.

I know nothing about Cameron or his reasons why he picks one camera over another. Red is a little camera manufacturer, Sony is on top of that a major studio. You dont need to work with marketing to understand that this film is produced by Sony. I bet there has been transcripts going back and forth between cameron people and Sony people long before this was shot discussing what has to be said in the particular film. Then Cameron get a sack of money to his film and Sony got some well needed advierticing for their latest camera iteration.

And to be frank. I think today there is so much other stuff to worry about before what camera is in use when making such films like this. Sure they want a good camera but arri, red, sony, canon could all deliver. So in the end it´s who pays the most for their product placement. This time it´s pretty clear Sony has reach out more then the others, just as they did when those shitty episoded of starwars where shot on their CineAltas.

So me guessing, camera choise here has little to do with what camera manufacturer is top notch, it´s more about how much money Cameron can eak out of them. As there is plenty cameras today that hold up way above cinema resolutions and quality standards.