Audio kit help!

[Brandon Kelly]

Hey everyone,

So I have had my audio kit for a little while now, and it seems to produce pretty nice sound for when we can't have a dedicated audio guy around. I have been researching and researching trying to dial in my kit and make sure I have the correct pipeline running and my mind is going crazy.

Rode NTG3, Sound devices MM!, variable attenuator, zoom h5

I have been running the mic into the mm1, then the attenuator at -10 to -20 db out of that into the zoom, with either a single xlr, or an xlr y adapter. I also have 1/4" TRS adapters for into the zoom, as Ive heard it will help bypass the zooms preamp.

I did a lot of tests yesterday trying to get the best audio possible but any suggestions would be great. The sound device boosts the mic and turns the level to a line level out. The zoom accepts both mic and line level it says, but doesn't a switch to choose.

I was testing with lower gains on the SD, and no attenuator. Slightly higher gains on the SD with atten. I tried mic straight into zoom, which actually sounded really good I just had to turn the knobs up a bit, so if the mic was a bit further away that might cause issues cranking the zoom pre, I triead all of the above with and without the 1/4 TRS.

What would be the correct pipeline, I just want to get the best audio I can with what I have.

Thanks

 

[Nick Fury]

Hi Brandon!

I know this is not what you requested, but feel compelled to post this. Please excuse the post.

What can be done with audio-even previously essentially deemd unusable, in the past- with Isotope and especially Izotope Advanced is really incredible. The Leveling Plugin alone is spot on, for what you are describing, in addition to Denoise/Spectral Denoise, et al.. That would be a VERY valuable addition that will stay with whatever kit you have.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Brandon Kelly]

Thanks Fury. I will look into it. The audio I am already getting is quite clean and sounds nice, just looking to maximize my gear and make sure I have the correct things going in and out.

 

[Tom Van]

I read through this years ago when I was tinkering with my audio gear and helped me a ton...

http://www.danmccomb.com/tips/zoom-...-properly-connect-the-two-for-pristine-audio/

 

[Brandon Kelly]

I read through this years ago when I was tinkering with my audio gear and helped me a ton...

http://www.danmccomb.com/tips/zoom-...-properly-connect-the-two-for-pristine-audio/

Thanks for the link, I have read through that one already and it is great. The mix pre has tape out, the MM1 does not. And the zoom h5 accepts professional +4 line/mic signals, Im not sure that the h4 is able to accept those.

The reason I have the attenuator and 1/4 TRS is because of this article, haha. Even though it looks like he uses unbalanced TS.

 

[Marc Wielage]

So I have had my audio kit for a little while now, and it seems to produce pretty nice sound for when we can't have a dedicated audio guy around. I have been researching and researching trying to dial in my kit and make sure I have the correct pipeline running and my mind is going crazy. Rode NTG3, Sound devices MM!, variable attenuator, zoom h5...

The Rode isn't a great mic, and the Zoom is a terrible recorder and has no timecode. The Sound Devices preamp is fine.

I'd suggest replacing all this gear with a Sennheiser MKH416 (widely available used on eBay) and a Sound Devices recorder, like a 722 or a 744. Nothing else needed. You can send a scratch track to camera if you want, or you can generate timecode from the recorder and jam the camera every so often. That's very little compromise in sound quality.

In truth, much depends on the type of shooting you do. Sometimes wireless mics are useful; sometimes different mics are needed for different situations (small room, big room, outdoors). No one mic can do everything.

As I always say, it seems sad to me to be using a $40,000 Red camera and only spend $1000 on audio. Spend at least 10% of your budget on sound. $4K would buy a perfectly adequate kit: sound recorder, a couple of boom mics, a couple of modest wireless mics.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

The Rode isn't a great mic, and the Zoom is a terrible recorder and has no timecode. The Sound Devices preamp is fine.

I'd suggest replacing all this gear with a Sennheiser MKH416 (widely available used on eBay) and a Sound Devices recorder, like a 722 or a 744. Nothing else needed. You can send a scratch track to camera if you want, or you can generate timecode from the recorder and jam the camera every so often. That's very little compromise in sound quality.

In truth, much depends on the type of shooting you do. Sometimes wireless mics are useful; sometimes different mics are needed for different situations (small room, big room, outdoors). No one mic can do everything.

As I always say, it seems sad to me to be using a $40,000 Red camera and only spend $1000 on audio. Spend at least 10% of your budget on sound. $4K would buy a perfectly adequate kit: sound recorder, a couple of boom mics, a couple of modest wireless mics.

Thanks for the input Marc. I would love to upgrade my audio kit, as well I would love to upgrade my camera to epic or dragon, but it is all working great for where I am at currently. I own a BT Scarlet MX, so my kit was around $14,000 ready to shoot. 10% of that would be $1,400 and I have alread spent more then that on audio, I am talking CDN $ as well. One day I will upgrade, but for now I am trying to maximize what I have.

But I will keep an eye out for a used 722 or 744, personally the 416 doesn't sound any better then the rode, but an upgrade on the zoom would most likely be the first thing to change.

Thanks

 

[Lee Kelly]

Hey Brendan,

I am a sound recordist in Sydney, who also shoots Red, mostly in the water.
What you have is surely fine for plenty of situations. I was doing a dodgy test ages ago with an older zoom recorder to use as an onboard mic/recorder for my Epic and found it was a matter of playing with the levels of the output and input til you get it right.
That was for sending guide track audio to the camera from the zoom. It was fairly clean for a guide.

It kind of seems like you are not locking in either mic or line level on the zoom, however I dont own one of those 5s so not sure what the process is. Considering the XLR inputs by default are likely to be mic inputs, I would start from there. The TRS input might be a dedicated line input?

Failing that, the mic directly into the zoom should be more than fine. You dont really want to up your gain too much as this will just add noise and thats boring. Getting good sound on location is more about mic placement. Get your mic in the right position and you are laughing. As one of the guys above suggested, different mics for different tasks.

As a side note, I have an old Sound Devices 744T and 4ch Sound devices mixer that I was looking to sell but never bothered actually trying to sell it if that makes sense. It served me very well and I would be open to reasonable offers. It is used and needs a bit of a clean but works perfectly. Check out ebay and see what these are going for and let me know if you are inteested. At the moment I use it as a backup but my 788T is like a tank and wont fail.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

Hey Lee, nice last name by the way

Thanks a lot for the input. The zoom does accept mic or line +4 inputs, it says on the website. I think I have dialed it in pretty good. With the SD from +18 - +36 I have been getting nice results from my tests, with or without the attenuator. I can't notice any difference if I go straight in with the XLR or use the TRS adapters and levels stay the same with either. I do notice more noise going straight in to the zoom compared to going through the SD.

Thanks everyone. I'm not sure I'm able to get a SD 744t right now, but the new zoom f8 looks interesting. If I sell my sound devices and zooom h5 I'm not to far off from getting the f8.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Thanks everyone. I'm not sure I'm able to get a SD 744t right now, but the new zoom f8 looks interesting. If I sell my sound devices and zooom h5 I'm not to far off from getting the f8.

One huge problem people don't initially see with the Zoom F8 is that the input knobs are extremely tiny, to the extent that they're little more than trim pots. (In truth, the SD 744 has similar problems, but it's at least double the size of the F8.) There's a point where stuff is too small to be of practical use. To me, the F8 is intended for zero-budget DSLR shooters, since it's not that much bigger than a DSLR and could bolt under the camera. There are also few considerations for post, particularly in terms of scene & take metadata.

Don't forget, you can always rent gear, if you're close to a major city. Even if you just had a decent recorder/mixer, you could just rent a boom mic for $25 a day and rent a wireless system for $50 a day. On a 2-week project, you'd be out less than $500 (assuming a 3-day rental charge for a week). This is a fraction of what great mics cost.

Think of the microphone as the lens. The greatest camera in the world will make crap pictures with crap lenses; the same applies to sound, when you use marginal microphones that aren't put in the right place. And sadly, no amount of post can overcome a microphone in a sub-optimal position. I'd go so far to say that a $2000 microphone in the wrong position will sound worse than a $300 microphone in the perfect position.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Brandon-

No mention of budget or if the audio needs to go in camera. However, FWIW, I'm a DRAGON owner/op who also happened to be an audio engineer/producer for many years before, so audio is HUGE for me. No matter what, record audio separately from camera. Use in-camera recording for reference only, even if it's just you; you'll save oodles of time and frustration later on (I have a RODE NTG3 on a shoemount on my top handle for this). I've had all the typical budget gear (btw, I would get rid of anything ZOOM, I have some horror stories on set with EM interference, etc).

My small kit, but pricy, revolves around the SOUND DEVICES 633 and the MIKTEK C5s (Matched Pair). Add a few quality LAVs, cans and a decent bag and you have studio quality sound on the go.

While I agree with Nick that a nice plug like Izotope can be a game changer, the less editing you have to do to original audio recordings the better. The 633 is built like a tank with professional features and internal components and will bring you peace of mind when on set. After doing several productions on it I wouldn't even dare to go another route with my audio files. The difference is stunning.

My 2 cents

Hey everyone,

So I have had my audio kit for a little while now, and it seems to produce pretty nice sound for when we can't have a dedicated audio guy around. I have been researching and researching trying to dial in my kit and make sure I have the correct pipeline running and my mind is going crazy.

Rode NTG3, Sound devices MM!, variable attenuator, zoom h5

I have been running the mic into the mm1, then the attenuator at -10 to -20 db out of that into the zoom, with either a single xlr, or an xlr y adapter. I also have 1/4" TRS adapters for into the zoom, as Ive heard it will help bypass the zooms preamp.

I did a lot of tests yesterday trying to get the best audio possible but any suggestions would be great. The sound device boosts the mic and turns the level to a line level out. The zoom accepts both mic and line level it says, but doesn't a switch to choose.

I was testing with lower gains on the SD, and no attenuator. Slightly higher gains on the SD with atten. I tried mic straight into zoom, which actually sounded really good I just had to turn the knobs up a bit, so if the mic was a bit further away that might cause issues cranking the zoom pre, I triead all of the above with and without the 1/4 TRS.

What would be the correct pipeline, I just want to get the best audio I can with what I have.

Thanks

 

[Brandon Kelly]

Thanks Marc and Marcos! I definitely agree with everything you guys are saying. When on larger jobs we do have a sound tech, and of course that is always the best, allowing me to focus on what I am doing. I do end up using my audio gear a fair bit though and it has worked fairly well for what it is. Upgrading my audio kit is the next thing on the never ending list it seems of things to get, or things I want, ahah. Thanks

 

[Marc Wielage]

My small kit, but pricy, revolves around the SOUND DEVICES 633 and the MIKTEK C5s (Matched Pair). Add a few quality LAVs, cans and a decent bag and you have studio quality sound on the go. ... while I agree with Nick that a nice plug like Izotope can be a game changer, the less editing you have to do to original audio recordings the better.

Yep, I think this is totally true. The 633 is a terrific little mixer and recorder, and there's lots of good mics out there. Trying to fix everything with iZotope is not a great idea. Izotope should be when you've got occasional noise, like an air-conditioning whine or a squeaky chair or something. But it's not a panacea for everything all the time.