Audio Controls

[Steve Gibby]

What is/where is the 'joystick' on the camera? (first time I've seen that mentioned) Is that part of the back panel controls? (checked Anders sticky, they haven't been tagged yet)

Yes, it is part of the back panel controls, or at least that was RED's stated plan as of 4/20/07:

"There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera"

Stuart English
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801&highlight=joystick

 

[Steve Gibby]

Finner and Fergus,

What's the point of passing judgement on the audio specifications of RED One when the final specifications for audio haven't even been finalized and released? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to reserve your opinions until that time?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Finner and Fergus,

What's the point of passing judgement on the audio specifications of RED One when the final specifications for audio haven't even been finalized and released? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to reserve your opinions until that time?

Because if the specs haven't been finalized and we let Red know that the current setup is a little worrisome, then there's still a chance they'll listen to the thread and improve their design?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Steve Gibby]

Because if the specs haven't been finalized and we let Red know that the current setup is a little worrisome, then there's still a chance they'll listen to the thread and improve their design?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread. RED has been listening all along throughout the development process for RED One and incorporating what they felt was necessary, workable, and cost-effective. I'd guess they'll do the same thing with audio. Hammering them time and again on the same points isn't necessarily going to achieve anything. I know all these guys on the RED Team personally and they're a bunch of smart, hard working guys who actually listen to the target market during a camera development process - a novel concept in this industry. That said, IMO they'll incorporate what they can and they'll also have some good reasons why they don't use certain suggestions.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread.

Any news on the RED Mini!?!!?

I kid I kid. :innocent:

 

[Steve Gibby]

Any news on the RED Mini!?!!?

I kid I kid. :innocent:

:angry01::gun: :rip_1:

 

[Bruce Allen]

Sorry Gibby, I guess I am still hoping for Red's sound department equivalent of Graeme Nattress to come forward and explain why they are doing things the way they are in a similarly open, compelling, eloquent and polite manner to the way Graeme explained Red's imaging philosophy. Ah well, no matter!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[tj williams]

Finner I'm actually quite hairy and look at least as good in tights as your ikon!! well maybe not quite as good?

At NAB mention was made that the accessory grip handle would have a control of audio levels and that they would show in the VF. So single ops can set levels with a button to rotate thru the channels and pressure switch on the grip handle to adjust levels!!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

At NAB mention was made that the accessory grip handle would have a control of audio levels and that they would show in the VF. So single ops can set levels with a button to rotate thru the channels and pressure switch on the grip handle to adjust levels!!

That sounds great. Would be nice if they had the controls on the side of the camera too.. I wish RED would spill a few beans about the audio controls. I'm not too worried about it because, like Gibby mentioned, these concerns have come up many times in the past. Even back in the DVXUSER RED forum days and RED has been very good about listening to public input. I'm confident that they will deliver a very functional audio solution.

I suppose if they don't, a giant WTF will be in order. :huh:

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

You're right of course Gibby, fair enough.. we shouldn't review a camera we haven't got our hands on yet.

You'll remember a few weeks ago there were a lot of concerns voiced here about there being no T-stops on the RED lenses, and Jim himself posted and engaged with that argument. The result was T-stops on the lenses. Hurrah!

You're right, we have been bellyachin' about the audio for months, but the RED team don't appear to be listening and that's a bit worrying.

I mean I don't know your work, but you clearly are a very experienced professional. Doesn't the audio set up strike you as a bit weird?
For example:

The more the merrier of course, but why would you need four mic level inputs on a camera? If you've got four mics on the go then surely you'd have a sound recordist, and they'd have a recorder of some sort.

Why no digital audio in?

Recording 24bit, setting the levels way low and boosting them in post would work but it's a pain in post and you're editor is going to hate you.

The beauty of standard audio faders is that they can be minutely lovingly adjusted mid-dialogue, or crash faded mid-explosion. It's a very hard to make buttons work like that.
I could go on..

But we all know this stuff already and I'm repeating myself, so enough already..:clown2:

Perhaps it'll all be alright on the night:biggrin:

 

[Finner]

Yeah, except a quick use of the Search tool will reveal that every issue raised in this thread has been raised repeatedly for the past several months now, including by some of the posters on this thread. RED has been listening all along throughout the development process for RED One and incorporating what they felt was necessary, workable, and cost-effective. I'd guess they'll do the same thing with audio. Hammering them time and again on the same points isn't necessarily going to achieve anything. I know all these guys on the RED Team personally and they're a bunch of smart, hard working guys who actually listen to the target market during a camera development process - a novel concept in this industry. That said, IMO they'll incorporate what they can and they'll also have some good reasons why they don't use certain suggestions.

I totally agree that RED has been great at listening but disagree that this is an easy quick thing to find info on with the search tool or that red has addressed and answered this question. I have used the search tool for a lot of things and been able to find the consise info that I was looking for but not so with this audio pots question. Heck I believe I started the last thread about it months ago watched it very close and never got much of an answer. Red has not given an explanation of how the audio system would work and I remember Stuart asking me a lot of questions some even were PM questions but no real description of how the audio controls and system would work was ever given that I saw or could find.


PS- TJ it's good to hear you are so hairy. I bet you are one hell of a sexy beast.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

It's interesting that Red hasn't chimed in here yet.

I think all ya'll are being too hard on Red. Red is not trying to be all things to all people. They have fully admited that they are not creating the ultimate solution up front and are leaving room for 3rd party tools. I am not at all worried about the audio not having external pots. You just run the miniXLRs into the full size ones of a mixer. Maybe they'll come out with an Audio Module that could be small and plug in via usb and control the audio ports that way. Shit, that would be so easy, there's no reason for it to cost more than $100.

But I strongly disagree with the people who think Red should have only had a digital in. Most mixers don't have a digital out! So how the hell do you propose to feed Red a digital signal?

 

[ericyoung]

...Red is not trying to be all things to all people. They have fully admitted that they are not creating the ultimate solution up front and are leaving room for 3rd party tools. I am not at all worried about the audio not having external pots...

But they ARE trying to cater for more shooting styles than a controlled studio shoot.

Built-in operational pots for at least two of the channels is a necessity if you're doing minimalist single person shooting. If you have to keep reassigning a channel to a control in order to change the level, it's going to be mighty frustrating using it in a run and gun situation. You just want to grab a control knob without having to first check you've got it assigned to the correct audio.

Something as basic as this should not be an additional purchase. It's not hard or expensive to include a couple of tough longlife audio pots.

I'm certainly keeping positive that Red haven't forgotten about the importance of the audio side too.

 

[Obin Olson]

I just hope it has simple pots like an hvx or any other pro camera and a limiter

 

[JohnF]

As mentioned earlier:

4 channels of 24 bit 48K audio running clean, low noise mic pres and circuitry with peak limiters, 48v phantom power, and accurate metering.

Steve

Yes please! My exact request also. Though I might also ask for an option of onscreen audio metering. (alongside exposure meters etc a small bargraph at the bottom of the screen with peaking indication)

I must say that menu driven audio controls sound like a bit of a nightmare.
If this is to be the case there must be limiters onboard to prevent peaking as for people shooting docs/ENG fast changing situations do not give time for one to fiddle with menus. Limiters would provide a safety margin allowing time for operators to adjust levels.

And please onboard/per channel limiters not AGC!

I often scratch my head in both wonder and frustration when I look at audio recording for filming. Why is it so bad when compared to the actual sound equipment market? They are miles ahead of us in terms of design and flexibility and price.
When I compare a video camera's 16bit 48k recording to the same on my cheapo portable DAT the quality difference is amazing(using the built in A to D's). How does the filming world get it so wrong? (with such regularity)

JohnF

 

[Bruce Allen]

When I compare a video camera's 16bit 48k recording to the same on my cheapo portable DAT the quality difference is amazing(using the built in A to D's). How does the filming world get it so wrong? (with such regularity)

I can think of three reasons:
1. It's damn hard to get a totally clean sound when your sound electronics are surrounded by all of the other camera electronics.

2. Camera engineers and camera company bosses think video is cooler than audio. The good sound guys & gals are working in the audio gear world where they are appreciated more.

3. People often don't buy a camera because of sound specs - well, it's the DP buying the camera, not the audio person usually I know that the DVX had a lot better audio circuitry than the XL1 and the PD150... but how many other people care? Manufacturers don't seem to feel that they have to give accurate statistics in terms of distortion, signal-to-noise ratio, etc. Red is changing that for video (they're trying hard to actually stick to their signal-to-noise ratio projections, bravo - this is an industry-changing practice that I really like!), let's hope they do it for audio too one day.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[JohnF]

Whilst I largely agree with your points Bruce I'll comment here:

Point 1: Faraday cage around audio electronics - not difficult or costly. Plus have you seen the amount of electonics in some audio kit? Some mixers and recording gear are mostly computer! (plus motors in the case of Harddisk R's, DAT's, minidisk etc)

2: Someone should point out that "Talkies" are going to be big business!

3: Let's hope RED do it with RED 1!!!

JohnF

 

[Steve Gibby]

Finner,

Your thread opening post was:

“Hi this was brought up quite few months ago, maybe even dvx user days but what ended up being decided for audio control pots. I have not seen any pot controls on the camera and if audio control is all menu based I could see it being an issue for EFP and doc shooters. I mainly do production work 95% of the time so it will not effect me as much.

Just interested on how the audio control system will work?”

You expressed concern that RED's proposed audio controls would be all menu driven, with no manual control in the form of pots, and that it would be a hindrance for run ‘n gun shooters (EFP and doc). My point is that a quick use of the Search tool could have answered your concern with these 4/20/07 and 6/15/07 answers provided by Stuart English:

“Yes the RED Supergrip can be used to adjust audio levels. That's mainly for the run and gun single operator application, at the other extreme is dual system sound where of course there is an external mixer.

There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera, but if you must have audio level adjustment available to a not sound guy / not cameraman, there is always the option of writing an app for a PDA and adjusting it via wireless....”

Stuart English
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801&highlight=joystick


“This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.”

Stuart English
6/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2831&page=4


--------------------------------

So, on 4/40 and 6/15 Stuart English directly answered the concerns you voiced on 7/18 when you opened this current thread. A quick search would have revealed that.

Most of what I produce/direct/shoot is run ‘n gun EFP style. For that, I see no problem with being able to physically adjust audio on the run with a choice of either the joystick on the back of the camera, the controls on the SuperGrip, or both. Stuart made it quite clear in his statements that audio controls was not something that you’d have to search in menus for each time you wanted to change levels.

Do you see where I’m coming from on this? You opened a new thread voicing concerns that have already been addressed many times over several month’s time, and field workflow solutions to those concerns have already been explained by RED Team previously – which I’ve quoted above. Then this thread bloomed out into an audio complaint session that went way beyond the concerns you voiced in your thread-opening post.

We’re all anxious for answers – but I think we also need to pay attention to the answers that have been given already.


-----------------------------


Fergus,

Yeah, I’m a 30-year professional veteran of several hundred national television programs – producer, director, editor, DP, and cinematographer. I got that experience level by paying attention to every aspect of production – including audio. Audio is absolutely critical to every production of every size. In fact, IMO it’s the bedrock starting point for every production. That said, I’m happy with the physical controls (joystick & SuperGrip) RED has proposed, menu controls for setup, and remote control options for audio they’ve proposed. Your foregone conclusion that RED has developed a great camera but somehow has dropped the ball on audio, before the final audio specs are announced, is very premature judgment IMO.



--------------------------



Again everybody, RED has listened throughout the development process, and IMO they’ve listened to the audio input too. Nobody is telling them anything on this thread that they haven’t heard from you before. The prototype cameras are in beta testing and I’d guess the specs should be finalized sometime soon. Hopefully the audio specs will easily enable the same broad range of cine style and EFP style production genres that the rest of the camera will. How about if we reserve judgment on that until the specs are finalized and we’re able to test them out….

 

[tj williams]

Gibby
You should write a star thread at the top of each of these about using the search. You are the very master of searching. I have also searched, and not found the very things you found? I had to scratch my head and remember the conversation I had with Stuart at NAB to remember the stuff about the Super grip, and it was incomplete. Hey all this is much better than trying to set levels on a Betacam while its on your shoulder.... which might lead to dislocation of the shoulder or elbow...
ps Finner Hairy or no I am a sexy beast for my advanced years! just not much of a librarian, which is fun given that my film studies program was housed under libriarianship. (sp?).... Don't ask why????

 

[JohnF]

So the Supergrip sounds like it is the accessory to have.

I know the RED team are concentrating on getting the camera ready before announcing further details as said earlier on another thread:

We'll have some more data on the RED SuperGrip and RED MOTOR accessories in the near future. At the moment we are focussed on finishing up the mechanical engineering and camera control software integration.

But for the more doc/ENG orientated shooters my spider-senses detect a thirst for more info.

I suggest that a basic annoucement of what the Supergrips possible functions(continuing the modularity of RED) are likely to be, subject to design changes, will be helpful for some.

Knowing that the menu driven sound controls are remotely accessible via the Supergrip has lifted my concerns. Infact thumbs up as it means that users that are short of a bob or two can still use the camera to the full - if a little slower.

JohnF