Audio Controls

[Stuart English]

Sound

Sound

As commented, most of this has been covered in earlier threads, but in summary :

We get the point of the question - where are the discreet sound pots? We continue to work on a variety of solutions to that, but the answers for now are a) Joystick and b) Supergrip and c) external mixer

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thanks Stuart.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Finner]

My point is that a quick use of the Search tool could have answered your concern with these 4/20/07 and 6/15/07 answers provided by Stuart English:

So, on 4/40 and 6/15 Stuart English directly answered the concerns you voiced on 7/18 when you opened this current thread. A quick search would have revealed that.

Hi Steve

I have been on this site for a while and feel I have learned to use the tools on the site fairly well and I did use the search tool before putting this up and finding answers was niether fast nor easy. In fact I found nothing thus the reason I posted this thread. Like TJ mentioned I feel your skill with using search options is much better then most of us. So we are not lazy just not nearly as skilled at it as you are.

Most of what I produce/direct/shoot is run ‘n gun EFP style. For that, I see no problem with being able to physically adjust audio on the run with a choice of either the joystick on the back of the camera, the controls on the SuperGrip, or both. Stuart made it quite clear in his statements that audio controls was not something that you’d have to search in menus for each time you wanted to change levels.

I do see possible problems with it. Every camera I have worked with that has audio contols has them on the smart side thus they are something a shooter gets use to using with their left hand (some are badly designed and are put directly where your head will be when shooting hand held which sucks but better then on the back of a camera.). So if you imagine an EFP/ENG red on your shoulder with a HD zoom controled lens and your right hand through the lens strap/zoom rocker on that lens. Now physically acting like you have that set up on your shoulder try and reach behind your head with your left hand to acurately adjust the joystick. When I do it I quickly feel like I would have to become a contortionist to achieve audio contol.

Do you see where I’m coming from on this? You opened a new thread voicing concerns that have already been addressed many times over several month’s time, and field workflow solutions to those concerns have already been explained by RED Team previously – which I’ve quoted above. Then this thread bloomed out into an audio complaint session that went way beyond the concerns you voiced in your thread-opening post.

IMHO I feel that this concern has not been addressed many times over and a good workflow solution has not been given from the quotes you listed. Also I do not have control over others making it an audio complaint session. I feel if people make something a point of complaint and post their concerns it is not challenging red or calling them down rather just concern over what could be a problem.

We’re all anxious for answers – but I think we also need to pay attention to the answers that have been given already.

I feel that I have paid very close attention to answers given on this topic. I just think the answers and solutions given have been very little and quite poor.




In the end we are all striving for the same goal here. I look at this forum as a team that comes together and express concerns about some things and excitement about other things. As lucky as we are to have Jim be open about the development of the camera with all of us Jim is also very lucky to have all of us as pretty much a free focus test group for the camera. I read an article in a news paper a few months ago about a gold mine company up here in Canada that owned land that geologists had proven had gold on it but were having trouble figuring out the best place to mine for it. They also were almost out of money and could not hire the appropriate engineers needed to find the best solution. So the president of the company pulled in a bright 22 year old that had recently graduated and been hired by the company and asked for his opinion. The young employee suggested they go online open all their current information, studies and findings and offer a $25,000 prize to the person that could offer the best soulution to their problem of where and how to mine. The response they got was worldwide and larger and better then they ever could have imagined and worth over 40 times the amount they gave away as they got responses from some of the best minds from that field in the world. That company now has one of the best goldmines in the country and is very rich.

I personally do not see praise or complaints as good or bad but just as information. I try and run my bussiness the same way and even though the complaints sting a little they are often the most valuable information I get. So yes I see this as a bit of a complaint RED is getting but it is also more then likely some very valuable information.

Just my thoughts.
Daren

 

[Finner]

I got a phone call in the middle of my post and just finished it to see Stuart had posted in the meantime.

Thanks for that Stuart. It seems to me that the joystick control on the back of the camera would be really hard to get at with the camera on your shoulder. Also I see possible problems with one joystick control if you are running 2 audio inputs.

 

[tj williams]

Hi Finner
I think the best hope for shoulder cam single ops is that the super grip has seperate sliders for all the audio channels. So that we can make adjustments with the opposite hand on sliders which are locked unlocked with a button or otherwise out of the way of the zoom etc controls which are operated with the right hand. This will be a necessary accessory for using the camera in that way.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I have been on this site for a while and feel I have learned to use the tools on the site fairly well and I did use the search tool before putting this up and finding answers was niether fast nor easy. In fact I found nothing thus the reason I posted this thread. Like TJ mentioned I feel your skill with using search options is much better then most of us. So we are not lazy just not nearly as skilled at it as you are.

Like you, I’m happy to help and contribute. This is a community and everyone helps everyone else.

I do see possible problems with it. Every camera I have worked with that has audio contols has them on the smart side thus they are something a shooter gets use to using with their left hand (some are badly designed and are put directly where your head will be when shooting hand held which sucks but better then on the back of a camera.). So if you imagine an EFP/ENG red on your shoulder with a HD zoom controled lens and your right hand through the lens strap/zoom rocker on that lens. Now physically acting like you have that set up on your shoulder try and reach behind your head with your left hand to acurately adjust the joystick. When I do it I quickly feel like I would have to become a contortionist to achieve audio contol.

Virtually all EFP style cameras have the audio pot controls on the left side of the camera, and the XLR taps on the back. With this arrangement, there is no adjustment of audio levels when shoulder held, without taking the camera off your shoulder and physically adjusting the pots. So if we always have to take a camera off our shoulders to adjust audio levels in the traditional EFP configuration, what is the big difference between doing that on the side and simply doing it on the back of RED One with a joystick? If the camera configuration is using a SuperGrip, then adjustment of audio levels is possible without taking the camera off your shoulder, because RED has confirmed that that the audio level meters will be viewable in the EVF, and presumably in the LCD also. In summary, the worst I have to do is take the camera off my shoulder if I’m not using a SuperGrip, just as I’ve always had to with traditional cameras, and the real improvement is in using the SuperGrip, where I can leave the camera on my shoulder and simply adjust the audio levels while I view them in the EVF or LCD.

IMHO I feel that this concern has not been addressed many times over and a good workflow solution has not been given from the quotes you listed. Also I do not have control over others making it an audio complaint session. I feel if people make something a point of complaint and post their concerns it is not challenging red or calling them down rather just concern over what could be a problem.

I’ve been able to extrapolate the field workflow from the info Stuart previously gave previously, as I outlined in my answer above. I understand that you have no control over what others post, but you did open a thread asking questions that had already been answered, and you know how threads often are here – brushfires of rampant threadjacking.

I feel that I have paid very close attention to answers given on this topic. I just think the answers and solutions given have been very little and quite poor.

They gave what info they felt they could through the process. It’s their camera system and we’re privileged to get the opportunity to give input progressively throughout the process. When all is said and done, they have the right to dish out the info on their schedule…not ours. I think the point is that they’ve listened real well and there was no indication that they stopped listening when it came to audio. There are periodic times in the motion media industry when new technology enables to move beyond the comfort zone of how we’ve always done things and adjust to new ways of doing them. IMO the use of the SuperGrip and joystick to adjust audio are one of those times.

In the end we are all striving for the same goal here. I look at this forum as a team that comes together and express concerns about some things and excitement about other things. As lucky as we are to have Jim be open about the development of the camera with all of us Jim is also very lucky to have all of us as pretty much a free focus test group for the camera.

I couldn’t agree more! The development process of RED One and its lenses/accessories has been, and continues to be a mutually beneficial symbiosis. We’ve collectively given vast amounts of input, and RED has sifted through that and incorporated what was reasonable, cost-effective, and necessary as they developed what was targeted as a scalable, flexible, and affordable camera system. That process is still ongoing. When the camera, lenses, and accessories finally ship, and we use them, we can smile knowing that we have collectively and individually played a key role in the development of it.

I personally do not see praise or complaints as good or bad but just as information. I try and run my bussiness the same way and even though the complaints sting a little they are often the most valuable information I get. So yes I see this as a bit of a complaint RED is getting but it is also more then likely some very valuable information.

Praise or complaints is valuable feedback, but repetitive praise or complaints about issues that have already been noted, addressed, and/or solved, are time and energy wasters, both for the issuers and the receivers. With a small staff and a huge overall project, I think RED Team has been extended way beyond the limits of human endurance throughout this development process. The more attention their small staff has to pay to repetitive issues that have already been noted and addressed, the more it slows them down in getting the development cycle completed, the production cycle started, and the cameras/lenses/accessories into the end user’s hands. At some point they have to quit the development of the equipment and send the specs out for production. There will undoubtedly be bugs and things that could have been done better. Hindsight is always 20/20.

You were invited to be a part of the LART team because you have extensive experience, an inquisitive mind, and can analyze the issues involved with the design and use of camera systems. Your experience and mind will be a good asset to the LART team. Let’s press on from here and put this discussion behind us!

------------------

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

 

[ericyoung]

...Virtually all EFP style cameras have the audio pot controls on the left side of the camera, and the XLR taps on the back. With this arrangement, there is no adjustment of audio levels when shoulder held, without taking the camera off your shoulder and physically adjusting the pots. So if we always have to take a camera off our shoulders to adjust audio levels in the traditional EFP configuration, what is the big difference between doing that on the side and simply doing it on the back of RED One with a joystick?...

Well that sounds like an argument for moving the pots further forward than the traditional EFP style camera. The difference is two pots which you know are each controlling a known channel - no thought required. One joystick means we may have to check what channel it is assigned to.

...If the camera configuration is using a SuperGrip, then adjustment of audio levels is possible without taking the camera off your shoulder, because RED has confirmed that that the audio level meters will be viewable in the EVF, and presumably in the LCD also...the real improvement is in using the SuperGrip, where I can leave the camera on my shoulder and simply adjust the audio levels while I view them in the EVF or LCD...

Yes, which is great for Red buyers with deep pockets or who want every accessory, but not so great for buyers already stretching their finances and where every extra option is another thing adding weight & bulk, time to rig, cost etc. I would probably get a SuperGrip, but I don't want to be forced to buy it and always rig it to control something as fundamental as riding audio levels on a couple of channels.

...I think the point is that they’ve listened real well and there was no indication that they stopped listening when it came to audio. There are periodic times in the motion media industry when new technology enables to move beyond the comfort zone of how we’ve always done things and adjust to new ways of doing them. IMO the use of the SuperGrip and joystick to adjust audio are one of those times...Praise or complaints is valuable feedback, but repetitive praise or complaints about issues that have already been noted, addressed, and/or solved, are time and energy wasters, both for the issuers and the receivers...

No argument that the Red team has listened to the max. And it's great to have new options, but if all you want is the minimum basics? New options shouldn't completely replace tradition, unless they really duplicate every advantage of the old. If a topic hasn't been aired recently, then all we are doing is bumping. No harm in that, especially when responses are understandably short and not exactly addressing a legitimate concern? With respect, Stuart has mentioned new ways of controlling audio, but hasn't revealed exactly how they replicate and better every function and advantage of the old paradigm. He has said they continue to work on a variety of solutions, so I am reassured that that it is being addressed.

...P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congratulations by the way!! :biggrin:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congrats on another year! Of course I don't know how many there have been... But you don't want to forget. I forgot our anniversary this year (8 years) and I had to break out my stealthy ninja skillz in order to cover my butt. I pulled it off, wife was happy. :shiftyph34r:

 

[Michael Ragen]

Hey TJ,
Unless the Supergrip design has changed since NAB I believe that it just has 4 buttons that correspond to the 4 audio channels and you use the joystick on the grip to control the level. I think those buttons can be assigned to other stuff as well.
It seems like someone could just design a cage mountable usb/wireless tiny controller with pots.

 

[Finner]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Go get her TIGER! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

[Bruce Allen]

P.S. - Today is me and my wife's anniversary and I need to bail out of here! I remembered it this morning with a "Happy Anniversary!" and a long walk on the beach by our house. I sneeked away to post here, but it's time for us to celebrate for most of the rest of today. I'll catch up with everyone later...

Congrats Gibby! Have a great day...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Stokestack]

The difference is two pots which you know are each controlling a known channel - no thought required. One joystick means we may have to check what channel it is assigned to.

Maybe not: They could use upper-left and lower-left joystick corners to bring the left channel up and down, and likewise for the right. Straight up and down could do both. So the joystick could adjust two channels pretty intuitively, as long as there's sufficient tactile or graphical feedback.

Although it's hard to evaluate in the abstract, it doesn't seem likely to me that controls on the back of the camera will be as convenient as controls on the side, even if the side controls can't be adjusted on your shoulder. Tilting the camera away from your head or cradling it in your arm to expose the side is easier and more secure than lowering the whole thing in front of and away from you (with one hand, by the grip, while keeping the whole heavy rig from flipping around) to mess with the back. Especially when you have batteries and storage bricks back there.

The SuperGrip sounds great, however.

 

[ericyoung]

Maybe not: They could use upper-left and lower-left joystick corners to bring the left channel up and down, and likewise for the right. Straight up and down could do both. So the joystick could adjust two channels pretty intuitively, as long as there's sufficient tactile or graphical feedback...

Nice idea, but still not as good as individual pots IMHO.

Want to whip the level to about 2/3 of full level on a pot? You just whip it round to about that angle, and then finesse it. There's no learning curve. With a joystick, I'd take a lot of convincing that tactile feedback would be good enough that you couldn't easily overshoot and end up oscillating around the desired level. Especially if the joystick is very small and so has tiny physical travel - difficult for a gentle touch. Even if the joystick was rate adjustable like a zoom demand - yes, with practice you could get pretty good at doing the adjustment, but why should we have to learn a new skill, unless it's clearly superior to old fashioned pots?

Take a look at a modern jet cockpit - still plenty of knobs! Why? Because physical angular feedback is hard to beat for quick adjustment. I'm not talking about rotary encoders - which are only good in certain applications, and not a universally superior replacement for physical controls. Why do professionals hate servo focus rings on prosumer camcorders? No physical angular feedback and lag is why.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Guys, you do realize that this thread would have possibly been worthwhile a year ago, but when Red is already done, and the production units ship in 5 weeks, this discussion is nearly pointless.

 

[ericyoung]

Guys, you do realize that this thread would have possibly been worthwhile a year ago, but when Red is already done, and the production units ship in 5 weeks, this discussion is nearly pointless.

Yeah, I realise! This discussion was certainly brought up months ago, but since then the image side has understandably taken most of Reduser bandwidth. Guess we're just venting and hoping that the audio side will kick ass too. :help:

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Exactly. I'm just terrified it's not going to work.
It may be late in the day now but once they start mass producing the thing it really will be too late. :cold:

To put this thread to bed we now need some more info about the Supergrip please.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

It'll work, go buy a Sound Devices MixPre, SD302 or SD442.

 

[Bruce Allen]

It'll work, go buy a Sound Devices MixPre, SD302 or SD442.

That'll definitely help a ton.

The added advantage is that you use the (presumably leagues better) Sound Devices preamps to amplify the signal to line level before you go into the camera's DAC. This is much better than having a low-end preamp trying to amplify a weak mic signal while surrounded by electronics of a running camera.

Of course, once you're spending somewhere between $670 and $1300 on a preamp (MixPre or 302), it does seem to make more sense just to get a $2500 702T, which not only has an excellent preamps but also an excellent DAC and is a self-contained high-def sound recording device with digital outputs, etc. In a pinch, you could go with the $1900 702, but it has no timecode and then due to lack of Red digital inputs, you'd be stuck with either using it as a mixer and recording through the inferior DAC of the Red, or recording without timecode if you wanted to get full recording quality by recording to the device.

Anyway, I guess the answer of how much to spend on the external preamps for the Red will depend on the quality of the rest of the signal chain - if you feed the Red a good line-level signal, how well will it hold up once the Red's DAC has converted it? Will you notice the difference between a MixPre and a Beachtek?

All of these analog solutions will hinge entirely on the quality of Red's DAC, which we will only be able to determine via testing.

If anyone is not convinced, read
Jay Rose's excellent article "DV Camera Audio: Real Numbers, Real Recommendations"

http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=23902929

You will be STUNNED at the differences in SN ratio, etc between a "respected" prosumer DV camcorder and DAT or even compressed MiniDisc.

Again, this is tied in to the whole issue of pots, because the lack of pots on the Red, makes an external mixer start to be a good idea... and once you decide to get an external mixer, your choice of how expensive an external mixer (or whether to get a mixer / recorder) will be determined by the quality of the Red's DAC and whether you'd be using it for primary audio recording or dual-system (my compromise suggestion of digital input obviously looking like it just won't happen).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Yeah, I've had a Sound Devices 744 for ages. I'm perhaps less stupid in reality than I sound on this forum :clown2: (perhaps more.. :biggrin: )
The point is that having and using 4 inputs on RED without Sound Devices quality circuitry and control is arguably a waste of time when we're going to be using this camera for work that will demand the ultimate in high quality reproduction.

Look at how every frame of beta fotage is currently being pored over to prove that RED is either revolutionary or overhyped!

I'm not saying that RED has missed the sound boat! How would I know that? But I am askin'...

Anyway, I'd better get back to reading Harry Potter :sorcerer:

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I feel I have enough info now to say that there is potential in these new methods of adjusting audio via camera. I have already put a lot of faith in these guys on the image side, and will put that same faith into the audio side.

Gibby, will there be enough bandwith (people, cameras, etc) to put the audio through some tests at your event? It will be good to get some real world feedback on how the audio is handled, actual real world sound quality, etc. I'd volunteer to help bringing my Sound Devices gear, mics, etc. but you probably already have your hands full with everything else.

As it is getting close to shipping time, let's take a wait and see approach and assume Red has this fully under control.

Steve