Audio Controls

[number6]

sounds like quite the mixtures of formats and production quality. (?)
you are planning on using the red on this... when do you plan on receiving your camera? (or rather... which reservation number are you? )

I don't know. Optioned one in late April and another in early June.

 

[Finner]

This has gone way off topic.

As far as the audio system the way you descibe #6 it is way to much work and will slow you down a ton. It's a terrible option just hire a sound person.

Back to the topic. It would be nice to hear from someone at red about the audio control situation the camera has been given. If it does not have designated pots or controls I see this camera being a bigger pain to EFP/ENG and doc shooters then it would be worth. Please someone at red comment on this.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

It would be great if anyone from Red would chime in here. I am wanting to use on-board recording (I often times use a lecro wireless and/or shotgun plugged directly into my cam for doc work) I don't need it to be 24 bit necessarily, but I need quality audio, and obviously some control. Anyone?

 

[Michael Mann]

Yes, please, RED team, give us information about the audio control!
Solid Sound Devices-type of gain control (pop-up potentiometers) are adequate for the RED. Pure menu based gain control would be quite a drawback.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Something like this would do it. They're usually less than $80 and media is a buck or two a pop for an hour. I use them for running around recording foley however I could easily see a boom operator popping one into his front pocket. I would imagine the results turning out much better than trying to keep a small pile of DV camcorders in line.

Edit: Whoops link... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-N420D...9132429-6863118?ie=UTF8&qid=1184828467&sr=1-7

 

[martinnoweck]

Been wanting to pose this question but was too shy to ask... am going to be doing a "bailing wire" shoot for my first (very) low budget projects. Also, have numerous mini dv cameras that I no longer use. Can I place those cameras discreetly around the set out of the shot, and record audio on four or five of them and after clean-up, mix them in Premiere CS3? Also, can H264 (or MPEG4 or whatever) audio be converted and used and remain synched with the action?

number6,

a) with this setup you will get a lot of phase-cancellation problems, so why don't do it the easier way: get a directional microphone (mono) as close as possible to your talent, record the sound as dry as possible and do the 5.1 mix in post?

b) most of miniDV cameras i know don't use very good A/D converters

kind regards,
martin

 

[number6]

Something like this would do it. They're usually less than $80 and media is a buck or two a pop for an hour. I use them for running around recording foley however I could easily see a boom operator popping one into his front pocket. I would imagine the results turning out much better than trying to keep a small pile of DV camcorders in line.

Edit: Whoops link... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-N420D...9132429-6863118?ie=UTF8&qid=1184828467&sr=1-7

Gavin, sounds interesting, especially if it has a useable built in mic. Couldn't find a mic jack in the specs, but some rival brand may have such a capability. Like the size, battery life, and hide-a-bility of it though.

 

[number6]

number6,

a) with this setup you will get a lot of phase-cancellation problems, so why don't do it the easier way: get a directional microphone (mono) as close as possible to your talent, record the sound as dry as possible and do the 5.1 mix in post?

b) most of miniDV cameras i know don't use very good A/D converters

kind regards,
martin

Just wondering if that would give me the ability to get distinct sounds from around the scene. May not be considered good moviemaking, but I want the option to place subtle emphasis on parts of a scene using sound in post. I suppose some would call it "reality Foley".

But Finner was right (pains me to say it) in his last post. This has gotten way off his original topic, so I will close this part of the audio discussion and return everyone to the regularly scheduled topic.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Number6 you are clearly either crazy or a genius or both :usd:

No answer from RED team yet huh.. I suspect it's they've made a big mistake with the sound and now they don't know what to do. for doco/eng work you NEED at least one professional sound port (as found on your average prosumer dv camera) you don't NEED 4.. for film work and much doco/eng work the sound is of course recorded to a HD recorder (l use the sound devices 744..). But having pro sound on the camera can be really useful on any film and I usually use both options depending on the circumstances. I'd take two mic level imputs with real physical knobs to change the level, and a digital input please.

We can't be saying anything here that Jim and the team don't know already!

 

[combatentropy]

From pictures on Red's and news web sites, I've gotten a pretty good look at each side of the camera, and I have seen no audio pots to speak of. Most likely audio levels are in a menu.

In that case, would attaching something like this work?

(Sound Devices MixPre)

It would not be ideal. You would have to be careful to attach it securely and keep whatever short cables you run out of the way -- with gaffer's tape, twist-ties, etc.

All in all the Red camera is a well-engineered machine that has exceeded the expectations of us all and even famous and talented (and no doubt demanding) Hollywood professionals. I just hope the next generation of models from Red, Silicon Imaging, and others realize that a cinema camera and an ENG camera are not mutually exclusive. A movie-quality camera can be lightweight, shoulder-wieldable, and ergonomic for making quick, run-and-gun adjustments (The Red is 80% there). And ENG can be simpler. They don't need gain, white balance, and all those other crazy buttons because you can do them renderlessly in post now -- or live, back in the truck. Nor do they need three CCDs because Red has clearly shown us that Bayer is quite adequate.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

with respect,
no it wouldn't work amigo

It's like the DALSA: "carry half the house around to record your data" works but is shit compared to the RED drive.

I'm sure the RED team have something up their sleeves. Like you I am full of respect for the camera they have created, but audio wise the machine is very badly designed it would seem.

Come on guys: post here to prove me wrong...:innocent:

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Number 6, start up a differnt thread elsewhere and we can continue to comment on your situation. I think in the end, you may want to explore having a qualified sound person on your shoot and I'll explain why it will be technically superior and in the long run, much cheaper.

Back on topic here. Having audio gain control buried in menu will not be good for run and gun shooting. For feature work and other high end productions it may be fine because their will be a sound team that will be using mixers and hard disk recorders and once they align the tones with the camera they can pretty much focus on their own thing and the audio will be under control. But someone who is trying to use this camera in a one man band scenario is going to have their hands full with the visuals and having to go into a menu for audio could be a problem.

Reason for having 4 channels: More of a luxury then a necessity, but I could see it being used to isolate actors/interviews for more control in post or if there is no mixer available. The more I think about it though, I'd rather see 2 channels with physical pots then 4 channels if it came down to choosing.

I know there has been talk of remote possibilities, i.e. adjusting audio levels from an external device that gets kooked up to the camera. Any more info on that kind of arrangement?

Steve

 

[soundoc]

with respect,
no it wouldn't work amigo

It's like the DALSA: "carry half the house around to record your data" works but is shit compared to the RED drive.

I'm sure the RED team have something up their sleeves. Like you I am full of respect for the camera they have created, but audio wise the machine is very badly designed it would seem.

Come on guys: post here to prove me wrong...:innocent:

I agree, I think that the audio controls will be menu driven only because of Ted's background, it would make sense. I don't know about everyone else but I haven't had a camera yet that had a good mic pre. I was planing on off camera audio for main audio and using the camera audio as backup and possibly for ambient audio.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes the RED Supergrip can be used to adjust audio levels. That's mainly for the run and gun single operator application, at the other extreme is dual system sound where of course there is an external mixer.

There is also audio level adjustment from the multi-function joystick / pot on the back of the camera, but if you must have audio level adjustment available to a not sound guy / not cameraman, there is always the option of writing an app for a PDA and adjusting it via wireless....

That is from Stuart back in april. Maybe things have changed.

Finding quality mic pres in a camera is hard to do. Cost, implementation are factors.

Steve

 

[Steve Gibby]

Some comments by Stuart English about the audio on RED One:

"All four audio inputs are mic/level switchable

All inputs support 48V phantom power for mics

The camera can suppress any active cooling (and hence sound) during a take

RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM and RED-Flash are all fan-less designs

Each audio input is sampled at 48KHz at 16 or 24-bit depth

We have considered methods for pre-digitized audio capture, but we have no news to share at this moment."

Stuart English
1/20/07
REDUser
http://205.234.134.160/forum/showthread.php?t=328



"This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.

The other comment I would offer is a 24 bit 48KHz audio recording has WAY more dynamic range than your normal 16 bit 48KHz recording, just as 12 bit RAW has WAY more dynamic range than 8 bits 4:2:2 video recording."

(confirmed in next post on that page that audio level info will be available in the EVF)

Stuart English
6/15/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2831&page=4


Nothing has been stated as being "final specifications" yet...

 

[martinnoweck]

Gibby,

you are a master of archiving!

thanks,
martin

 

[Finner]

Thanks for that Gibby.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.

Too bad though standard audio pot contols would have been much simplier and functional.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Exactly Finner..

And you can hear the reviews now eh: "We can't give this amazing new camera 5 out of 5 because the sound controls etc etc". It's an oversight, and I'll take bets the RED 2 will have proper audio controls. I wonder much the Supergrip is, when will it be released, and what it weighs.

 

[Scott Webster]

"This audio levels question has been answered before …of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joystick,

What is/where is the 'joystick' on the camera? (first time I've seen that mentioned) Is that part of the back panel controls? (checked Anders sticky, they haven't been tagged yet)

 

[Finner]

Exactly Finner..

And you can hear the reviews now eh: "We can't give this amazing new camera 5 out of 5 because the sound controls etc etc". It's an oversight, and I'll take bets the RED 2 will have proper audio controls.

These have been my exact thoughts on this for a while now. Luckily I rarely have to deal with audio but for guys like TJ this will become a pull your hair out kind of thing and from my mental image of TJ I am not sure if he has much hair to spare.