Audio Controls

[Finner]

Hi this was brought up quite few months ago, maybe even dvx user days but what ended up being decided for audio control pots. I have not seen any pot controls on the camera and if audio control is all menu based I could see it being an issue for EFP and doc shooters. I mainly do production work 95% of the time so it will not effect me as much.

Just interested on how the audio control system will work?

 

[Kyle Presley]

Could it be an add on? Everything is modular thus far.

 

[Clayton Harper]

i was talking about making a usb-based mixer board that could control the pot levels. I think physical controls are a must.

Changing little menu settings is miserable and difficult to do under the gun. I am all for muscle memory.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I asked about this about six weeks ago and didn't get a real answer. There was some talk of using the menu to assign buttons to adjust the audio level; which is cool I suppose, assuming there are plenty of redundant buttons on the camera body inch:
It's a bit weird though eh. Maybe there's a master plan, everything else about the camera seems so well thought out. But if there is such a plan I wonder why no one can tell us.

 

[Nook Kim]

i was talking about making a usb-based mixer board that could control the pot levels. I think physical controls are a must.

Changing little menu settings is miserable and difficult to do under the gun. I am all for muscle memory.

Anything connected to the camera through USB/Firewire connections scare me,
except when the camera is not working. I don't consider USB port stable at all for
production use as, in this case, the mixer will have to stay connected for the
whole time during the shoot. Even on my laptop, I experience from time to
time where the USB connector gets loose. And I don't move around while
using my laptop. :detective2:

Regards,

 

[Bruce Allen]

The audio system of the Red has always confused me. I have posted about this a couple of times. It has some weird middle-of-the-road compromises. I'd much rather they'd either:

1. made the audio system truly first-class (eg proper controls, good levels meters, top-end DACs and pre-amps, 96khz recording)

or

2. Given you an external digital audio input (so you could feed the Red with a Sound Devices recorder / mixer's digital outs and have that pristine audio signal recorded sync'ed to picture - would have been great!).

or

3. Just gone cheap (make it 16bit 48khz, 2 inputs)

Maybe they are doing #3 but found it wouldn't cost much more to do 4 inputs and 24bit?

Your current best option for audio control is to send everything through an external mixer. But you have to go in analog, through the (presumably not top-flight) Red audio system, so you lose some of the benefits of your gear.

Maybe Red will allow for an upgrade of the audio system like they plan their sensor?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[jbeale]

Last I heard, sound recording wasn't even enabled on the prototype REDs. But until we're told otherwise, I think for pristine sound you have to do it like you've always done it for film... 2nd-system sound with your external recorder of choice. There's a lot of recorder models out there these days and prices are coming down.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

the jury is still out on this one for me too -

very curious to see if they take this seriously -

I want it pristine - or not at all -

but, physical controls via wireless are 100% possible -

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Finner, you're right this was a topic of discussion that never got fully resolved. I was into the idea of recessed pots, but there were other opinions on this as well. Perhaps this has all been worked out behind the scenes and we just haven't heard much about it. Hopefully we are going to get the following.

4 channels of 24 bit 48K audio running clean, low noise mic pres and circuitry with peak limiters, 48v phantom power, and accurate metering.

Steve

 

[number6]

Last I heard, sound recording wasn't even enabled on the prototype REDs. But until we're told otherwise, I think for pristine sound you have to do it like you've always done it for film... 2nd-system sound with your external recorder of choice. There's a lot of recorder models out there these days and prices are coming down.

Been wanting to pose this question but was too shy to ask... am going to be doing a "bailing wire" shoot for my first (very) low budget projects. Also, have numerous mini dv cameras that I no longer use. Can I place those cameras discreetly around the set out of the shot, and record audio on four or five of them and after clean-up, mix them in Premiere CS3? Also, can H264 (or MPEG4 or whatever) audio be converted and used and remain synched with the action?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sure, but are you using the camera mics or will you be running external microphones to them? Depending on the camera models, the audio may or may not be that good. Also, make sure that you record 16 bit 48K, as some of those older DV cameras default to 12 bit 32k. As far as h264 or MPEG audio, as long as your app can support it, or you can convert it to the appropriate format for your audio mix, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

 

[number6]

Sure, but are you using the camera mics or will you be running external microphones to them? Depending on the camera models, the audio may or may not be that good. Also, make sure that you record 16 bit 48K, as some of those older DV cameras default to 12 bit 32k. As far as h264 or MPEG audio, as long as your app can support it, or you can convert it to the appropriate format for your audio mix, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

Thanks, Steve. Was planning to use externals on all, although not really high quality ones. Ebay stuff. The cameras I will have available (I never sell anything) are a couple of the old Canon mini DV models, a canon GL1 and a Canon XL1. Also, have 2 Sanyo Xacti Hd1 (and 1a). Will be videoing behind the scenes footage with a JVC GZ HD7u, but will not be using the audio from that one, except if background noise might be useful. Probably won't use audio from the REDS if the other setups will cover my audio needs.

edit: thanks for the heads-up on the bit rate.

 

[number6]

, it shouldn't be a problem, unless the audio is at a different speed for some reason.

This got me thinking... those other cameras only record at 30 fps and I was planning on shooting 24 fps. Will this make a diff?

 

[Keith Nealy]

You may be in for a nightmare in post with all those DV sources.

Make sure you do an audible slate that you can use to sync them all up in post. If you are using the video portion for sync you can fire a flash that all cameras can see and then sync that up in post.

As Steve said, make sure all cameras are set for 15 bit 48k and use external mics as you might get camera noise.

Just a thought. A sound guy with a mixer who had control over a bunch of set mikes run to one or two tracks would give you more control and better quality sound AND much less headache in post.

Aloha,

Keith

 

[Keith Nealy]

Yes. All the more reason to use a good sound guy/girl who knows their stuff.

Just so I understand you better, from a creative point of view, what is the purpose of all those wild sound sources?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would just buy a few portable minidisk recorders.

They're relatively inexpensive and probably have significantly better ADCs than your camcorder.

 

[number6]

You may be in for a nightmare in post with all those DV sources.

Make sure you do an audible slate that you can use to sync them all up in post. If you are using the video portion for sync you can fire a flash that all cameras can see and then sync that up in post.

As Steve said, make sure all cameras are set for 15 bit 48k and use external mics as you might get camera noise.

Just a thought. A sound guy with a mixer who had control over a bunch of set mikes run to one or two tracks would give you more control and better quality sound AND much less headache in post.

Aloha,

Keith

Yeah, the flash to synch sounds, sounds like a good idea. Had intended to leave lens caps on all cameras and just record sound, but I guess the quality of the sound would not be affected by recording video too. I've got plenty of spare mini DV tapes and quite a few Secure Digital cards for the Xacti cameras which actually do fill up faster when recording video as opposed to just audio.

Just wondering... would an audible beep work as a synching device?

 

[number6]

Yes. All the more reason to use a good sound guy/girl who knows their stuff.

Just so I understand you better, from a creative point of view, what is the purpose of all those wild sound sources?

Shoestring production. Cash strapped. Pulled too many bank robberies in the past (signed notes) to get money that way. Will make do. Always have.

edit: maybe I misunderstood... you did say from a creative point of view. My reasoning is to have enough tracks to do 5.1 or maybe even 7.1 surround sound. Probably won't mix it as such for any festival entries, but will have the sound available should any distributor want the flexibility of re-editing that way.

 

[number6]

I would just buy a few portable minidisk recorders.

They're relatively inexpensive and probably have significantly better ADCs than your camcorder.

Gavin, am unfamiliar with the minidisk recorders. Do they have external mic inputs? Do they require special recording media?

The reason I am using the available cameras is because I already have them and the media to capture the sound on. Frees up limited funds for other things.

 

[readyandaction]

sounds like quite the mixtures of formats and production quality. (?)
you are planning on using the red on this... when do you plan on receiving your camera? (or rather... which reservation number are you? )