Ask Mike Most Anything

[Scott Crawley]

Thanks, unfortunately I'm only getting paid about $8/hr and can't afford to buy tools the studio refuses to purchase or put in any additional hours beyond the 12-16 hour days I already agreed to. I'll see if I can convince them to buy what you suggested for our next project, though. It's very frustrating trying to do a good job without the proper resources. Thankfully the grade looks fantastic so far, but I have to work very conservatively and refer religiously to the waveform monitor and scopes to make sure the image is roughly what it appears to be.

If the folks at the helm won't put in what it takes to get a proper finish then you really are sailing on a ship of fools. Try not to take this the wrong way...

ROBERT PLANT
"Ship Of Fools"

On waves of love my heart is breaking
And stranger still my self control I can't rely on anymore
New tides surprise - my world it's changing
Within this frame an ocean swells - behind this smile I know it well
Beneath a lover's moon I'm waiting
I am the pilot of the storm - adrift in pleasure I may drown
I built this ship - it is my making
And furthermore my self control I can't rely on anymore
I know why - I know why
Crazy on a ship of fools
Crazy on a ship of fools
Turn this boat around - back to my loving ground
Who claims that no man is an island
While I land up in jeopardy - more distant from you by degrees
I walk this shore in isolation
And at my feet eternity draws ever sweeter plans for me
I know why - I know why
Crazy on a ship of fools
Crazy on a ship of fools
Turn this boat around - back to my loving ground
Oh no, oh no - ship of fools --


Yngwie Malmsteen
Ship Of Fools

When the rats are bailing out
And you are just signing on
Then you turned and walked away
There is no love lost here, my friend

But you have made a great mistake
You ate the hook, the sink and bait
Now you can't get out
It's much too late

The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
And on and on and on

But I can be merciless for sure
And you'll sail for many moons
I can't believe you lost your mind
I'll watch you falling down, again

You have been living in a dream
And I can hear the same old theme
But nothing's ever what it seems

The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
And on and on and on

The truth is always hard to face
Especially when you are in that place,
Like the ship of fools

The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
And on and on and on

The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
The ship of fools keep sailing on
And on and on and on

 

[M Most]

I can't possibly do better than quoting the great singer, cinematographer, and philosopher Robert Plant, but the suggestion to go out to videotape is a pretty good one, if only because it will eliminate any of the potential pitfalls of files, such as unexpected gamma shifts and proper SMPTE scaling. Plus, there are a lot of properly set up studios in which you can play the tape on proper monitors to confirm that what you have is what you intended to have. Of course, all of that is assuming you have the capability of playing out to videotape, or know someone who does.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

What is the intent for converting ICC to LUT for the 3d display LUT ? Is it Perceptual or Relative Colorimetretic ? Should the input and output be linearizied ? And it seems the use of black point compensation is reasonable , or not ? It all probably differ depending on the situation but my goal is to have visually the same feeds - dvi and hdmi (through different cards, one have profiles implemented- video card, another BM doesn't ) to one monitor in same system. I could probably eyeball the variants but knowledge how to do it WRIGHT would be a big help. Thank You in advance.

 

[danibam]

Bit depth of latest RAW files

Bit depth of latest RAW files

Hi Mike ... maybe you could help me clarify this as I do find it kind of confusing !

I have been hearing lately that newest cameras like EPIC, SONY F65 ... all process internally in 16 bits ... somewhere I heard/read EPIC is currently 14 bits but soon to be 16 bits with upcoming sensor upgrades. Even read something about ALEXA doing some kind of dual processing of the sensor information ... in 16 bits.

My question is though related to the bit depth actually delivered by the RAW files. I believe ARRIRAW delivers 12 bit Log encoded RAW ... and I always thought R3D files were 12 bits RAW as well (delivering linear light and not log though). I am not sure what SONY's SRmemory RAW files are, but I believe they claim 16 bits linear ... Has the R3D file format changed with EPIC claiming 14 bits (or 16 bits) ...

Also wanted to ask if internal camera processing is fixed point or floating point? I somehow believe it is fixed point ! ... would that really matter? What about what is delivered in the RAW files? Is that floating or fixed point?

Mainly curious about this !! ... thought you were the best person to ask !!

Thanks,

Daniel Perez
WhyOnSet Madrid

 

[Caleb Heymann]

Hi Mike, I tried posting this but so far nobody has replied and I think it's a very important issue that gets little attention here on Reduser. After all, HDRX is touted as one of the great features of the Epic and it's a great tool, but there's surprisingly little discussion of how to implement it into workflows.

I'm on a 12 day commercial job as DIT right now and we are shooting a lot of HDRX footage, and I'm trying to figure out what is currently the best HDRX workflow to preserve both the dynamic range as well as greatest possible resolution for image stabilizing. On set I am using Magic Motion to render DNXHD36 files for the offline edit, but I need to find the best solution for finishing.

The first question is, do any of the finishing platforms currently support magic motion? I realize that it has been part of the SDK, but not sure if it has been incorporated into Resolve or any of the other platforms.

If not, then what workflow are people using for HDRX?

One option would be to do the blend / luma key, image stabilizing, motion blur, etc in VFX (we already have a lot of VFX shots) but this would be expensive, incurring unexpected costs and may mean that we only have 2k DPX available for the grade.

Another option would be for me to use RedcineX to create redlogfilm 4k DPX files using Magic Motion and to hand those over for the grade. But that will be a huge amount of data and extra rendering on my end. If I go 2k Prores 4444 then it limits the amount of image stabilizing (lots of tracking vehicles, russian arm, etc to stabilize) so that's not idea either.

So I'm calling out to redusers for best workflows, platforms and settings to get the most dynamic range out of HDRX for an online while rendering motion as normal as possible. I'd really appreciate anything the community could share.

Thanks, Caleb

 

[M Most]

Hi Mike ... maybe you could help me clarify this as I do find it kind of confusing !

I have been hearing lately that newest cameras like EPIC, SONY F65 ... all process internally in 16 bits ... somewhere I heard/read EPIC is currently 14 bits but soon to be 16 bits with upcoming sensor upgrades. Even read something about ALEXA doing some kind of dual processing of the sensor information ... in 16 bits.

My question is though related to the bit depth actually delivered by the RAW files. I believe ARRIRAW delivers 12 bit Log encoded RAW ... and I always thought R3D files were 12 bits RAW as well (delivering linear light and not log though). I am not sure what SONY's SRmemory RAW files are, but I believe they claim 16 bits linear ... Has the R3D file format changed with EPIC claiming 14 bits (or 16 bits) ...

Also wanted to ask if internal camera processing is fixed point or floating point? I somehow believe it is fixed point ! ... would that really matter? What about what is delivered in the RAW files? Is that floating or fixed point?

Mainly curious about this !! ... thought you were the best person to ask !!

I'm really not, as I don't work for Red and have no insight into the camera design or processing path. Perhaps you should redirect this to Stuart or Graeme.

 

[M Most]

Another option would be for me to use RedcineX to create redlogfilm 4k DPX files using Magic Motion and to hand those over for the grade. But that will be a huge amount of data and extra rendering on my end. If I go 2k Prores 4444 then it limits the amount of image stabilizing (lots of tracking vehicles, russian arm, etc to stabilize) so that's not ideal either.

So I'm calling out to redusers for best workflows, platforms and settings to get the most dynamic range out of HDRX for an online while rendering motion as normal as possible. I'd really appreciate anything the community could share.

Since dealing with HDRx footage involves decisions based on the particular shot, and since it involves a number of choices (motion blending, keying, etc) there is no "ideal" way to use it. Each job has its own individual needs and each image has its own individual needs. HDRx is not a "single button" solution, it is a tool that requires the use of other tools and techniques to be of meaningful use. If your particular footage requires both motion blurring/blending and no cropping, then one price you probably have to pay is a larger image size if you do the image combining as a pre-comp process. Trying to do the blending in a "live" correction path is not particularly optimal in many, if not most cases, because you'll essentially be pulling two streams, doubling the bandwidth requirements and image processing requirements of whatever software and hardware you're using. If you've got a very beefy system, that can be done, as evidenced by the numerous systems doing stereoscopic work. But you're probably better off pre-processing the combined images and using the result in your grading/finishing session to better allow for fluid playback and fewer headaches.

 

[mikeburton]

Hey Mike,
I've been debating upgrading our facility projector for a few months and have been hesitant due to the added cost of installing 220w power required and a little bit of contractor work on our room. I recently heard about the new Sony VPL-VW1000 4K home theatre model. It says it's DCI complient and all the reports I'm hearing are great. But I was wondering if you had any experience or advice in this area? Is the Barco DP-12C the better way to go with the added cost factor? Our room is approximately 22ft x 18ft and we have a 147" Stewart Screen so it should be perfect to hang in our current spot approximately 16ft from the screen. Any info would be appreciated.
Thank you sir!

 

[Nick Metcalf]

Hi Mike, I was listening to an fxguide interview recently where Peter Doyle describes using a 3D color matrix to neutralize an image:

"If you just desat the blue you would be desating everything of its blue by the same amount... where if you use are using a 3D color matrix it would just say wherever there is more blue than red and green neutralize it to be the same."

@ 00:37:50

Do you know how this can be achieved? In this case is a 3d matrix the same as a 3d lut?

Thanks!

 

[M Most]

Hey Mike,
I've been debating upgrading our facility projector for a few months and have been hesitant due to the added cost of installing 220w power required and a little bit of contractor work on our room. I recently heard about the new Sony VPL-VW1000 4K home theatre model. It says it's DCI complient and all the reports I'm hearing are great. But I was wondering if you had any experience or advice in this area? Is the Barco DP-12C the better way to go with the added cost factor? Our room is approximately 22ft x 18ft and we have a 147" Stewart Screen so it should be perfect to hang in our current spot approximately 16ft from the screen. Any info would be appreciated.

For a facility, I feel that accuracy and adherence to standards is more important than pure resolution. And accuracy in terms of blacks is a very critical factor in critical color environments. For these reasons, I would stay with the 2K DLP technology, but that doesn't mean you should. It all depends on whether you value accuracy over numbers and PR. I can tell you, though, that nearly every major DI company in Los Angeles (and presumably other major markets as well) also values accuracy above all other considerations, and have made their equipment choices accordingly. Feel free to read into that what you will. :001_unsure:

 

[M Most]

Hi Mike, I was listing to an fxguide interview recently where Peter Doyle describes using a 3D color matrix to neutralize and image:

"If you just desat the blue you would be desating everything of its blue by the same amount... where if you use are using a 3D color matrix it would just say wherever there is more blue than red and green neutralize it to be the same."

@ 00:37:50

Do you know how this can be achieved? In this case is a 3d matrix the same as a 3d lut?

It's not the same, but in most cases a matrix can be implemented through a 3D LUT.

Basically, a matrix is used to "cross pollinate" the three color channels. Each channel is allowed to have a mixture of the other two as well as its own component. So the Red channel, for instance, can contain the information from the Red channel as well as a portion of the information from the Blue and Green channels. Each of the three channels, in effect, is given three components. All of this is useful because in terms of how a camera works, it is almost impossible to ensure that each channel is getting pure information. Crosstalk is inherent in the capture process, due to numerous factors including but not limited to impure color dyes in the color filters present on the sensor (in the case of a sensor with a color filter array, such as a Bayer pattern sensor), imperfections in the dichroics of a 3 chip camera design, lack of perfect focus on to the underlying pixels in a color filter array sensor, and imperfections in the optical elements. The use of a matrix allows minimization of crosstalk by analyzing the sensor's output and applying information from all three channels to each of the three channels in proper proportions, sometimes using mathematical expressions for more specific control (that's what Peter is talking about). When done correctly (often by the manufacturer, as they have much better knowledge of the sensor design) this yields purer colors and restores "normal" saturation. Graeme can explain this in more depth, but basically the colorimetry of Red images has improved in large part due to his updating of the color matrix, which in the case of Red is currently presented to you in the form of Redcolor, Redcolor2, and Redcolor3. In the early days of Red's cameras, the saturation was typically much too low and the colors were not as "true to life" as they are today, in large part due to the lack of a well evolved color matrix. By carefully altering the proportions I'm talking about, both color purity and saturation have been altered based on feedback from users, in order to provide more pleasing results.

In a post environment, matrixing can be used exactly as Peter describes, to "normalize" a signal that is "wrong", such as an image that was shot with the wrong white balance. One fairly accessible implementation of this is DaVinci Resolve's Color Mixer, which is essentially a variable matrix. I've used that tool to alter entire scenes that were shot with improper white balance, resulting in a very blue image (the color temperature was incorrectly set at around 3200K, which is roughly equivalent to tungsten lighting, even though the scene was a day exterior). By populating the deficient Red channel with information from the Blue channel, and minimizing the blue component of the blue channel, as well as some other channel manipulations, I was able to "normalize" the image in a way that was not really achievable by changing normal balance. Essentially, I used the matrix as a color temperature/tint control, using the blue channel component to alter temperature, and the green channel to alter tint (essentially a change on the green/magenta axis).

I hope that's not overly confusing. A color matrix can be a very useful tool in the right situation and in the right hands. It is not a "normal" color correction tool (unless you're a video engineer), but in some situations it can definitely do things that other tools are not easily capable of.

 

[Nick Metcalf]

Thanks Mike, that explains a lot.

Is there a similar tool in Baselight or would they have built a custom OFX plugin maybe? I assume the expressions they were using prevented it from being just a Truelight LUT...

 

[M Most]

Thanks Mike, that explains a lot.

Is there a similar tool in Baselight or would they have built a custom OFX plugin maybe? I assume the expressions they were using prevented it from being just a Truelight LUT...

I don't know, but my guess is that it was implemented as a plugin. The Filmlight guys are very hard core code geeks (and I mean that in the best possible way), and it's possible that Peter had their cooperation in order to build some expression driven tools, much as you would with a program like Nuke. You can use expressions within specific fields in the basic program, but what he was doing requires a bit more than that in terms of the math involved. And no, there isn't a matrix tool in the current release (there is a channel remap tool, but it basically swaps the channels, it doesn't add them proportionally). BTW, Peter has been doing this kind of thing for some time, and on platforms other than Baselight. He used a lot of custom scripts back in the 5D Colossus (which ultimately was sold and evolved into Autodesk Lustre) days when he was working for Peter Jackson.

 

[Nick Shaw]

You can of course express a matrix as a formula transform such as:

R = (0.412453*R + 0.357580*G + 0.180423*B) / 0.9505
G = (0.212671*R + 0.715160*G + 0.072169*B)
B = (0.019334*R + 0.119193*G + 0.950227*B) / 1.089

This can be implemented in Baselight as a Truelight layer. Although Truelight in fact then converts the formula into a 3D LUT for speed of processing.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I believe channel-swapping was also used to create the 2-strip Technicolor look of The Aviator, done a few years ago by Steven Nakamura when he was at TDI/Burbank. It's a powerful tool for certain situations, but not something that I think is necessary for many projects.

There are many, many ways to create unique looks like that, and I'd bet if you shoved five top colorists in five different rooms, told them exactly what look you wanted, they'd each come up with a different way that would probably work. Some of this is more art than science.

 

[Mike Lary]

Hi Mike,

If you've already covered this I'll go back and break out the fine-tooth comb.

Here's the situation (theoretical as we don't have files in hand). A customer supplies DPX files for a job that was graded for a film out. We need to grade for broadcast and web as close as possible to the film grade. We're using a properly calibrated (hardware assisted) Cinemage B420 in REC 709 mode and Resolve. My first question is: what is the ideal workflow with and without having access to the preview LUT that was used for the film out grading session, specifically what type of LUTs do we need and where should we place them? Does it make sense to use the DI's preview LUT for emulation and then load a log-to-lin LUT on a node further down the pipeline, or should we be using a custom LUT that performs a color transform as well as the log-to-lin conversion?

 

[John Tissavary]

Hi Mike,

If you've already covered this I'll go back and break out the fine-tooth comb.

Here's the situation (theoretical as we don't have files in hand). A customer supplies DPX files for a job that was graded for a film out. We need to grade for broadcast and web as close as possible to the film grade. We're using a properly calibrated (hardware assisted) Cinemage B420 in REC 709 mode and Resolve. My first question is: what is the ideal workflow with and without having access to the preview LUT that was used for the film out grading session, specifically what type of LUTs do we need and where should we place them? Does it make sense to use the DI's preview LUT for emulation and then load a log-to-lin LUT on a node further down the pipeline, or should we be using a custom LUT that performs a color transform as well as the log-to-lin conversion?

I know this is Mike's thread (Hi Mike!), but thought I'd jump in since he hasn't had a chance to respond yet

While there are probably quite a few ways of doing this, including by eye, my personal preference would be to apply the original emulation lut in the grade itself (I like to put it in the first node of each clip's grade), and do whatever trims are necessary on top of that to have a technically acceptable and pleasing image within the constraints of the standard you are targeting (rec709). You'd want to make sure that the LUT they originally used to grade isn't going to introduce any unacceptable artifacts, but if it's good on that count then I believe it is the most direct path to getting the results from the original grade in the new colorspace.

Other than that you can do a log-to-lin conversion (lut or custom curve), then grade on top of that to match the original movie. If you have a side-by-side setup with film and digital projectors it's easier to match by eye, otherwise you have to do it from memory, which is not ideal IMHO.


John T

 

[M Most]

While there are probably quite a few ways of doing this, including by eye, my personal preference would be to apply the original emulation lut in the grade itself (I like to put it in the first node of each clip's grade), and do whatever trims are necessary on top of that to have a technically acceptable and pleasing image within the constraints of the standard you are targeting (rec709). You'd want to make sure that the LUT they originally used to grade isn't going to introduce any unacceptable artifacts, but if it's good on that count then I believe it is the most direct path to getting the results from the original grade in the new colorspace.

While that is one way to do it, it has the disadvantage of saddling you with an image that was probably targeted to a P3 display (common in film DI work) rather than a Rec 709 display. This in turn is going to yield an image with a different white point, a different gamma, and an unnatural greyscale that you will then have to correct.

Under ideal circumstances, the facility doing the DI also does the video deliverables, and in most cases, that facility has different print emulation LUTs that are targeted to different display types. So once the film version is done, the LUT is swapped out for a different LUT that incorporates the same film target, but is calibrated to produce a proper image on a Rec709 display. The picture is then trimmed to taste. There is no real substitute for this that will provide the same image as accurately or as automatically. So the answer to the original question is to either obtain or create a LUT that is specifically designed to have a Cineon image as its input, has the same film path (I.e., intermediate stock and print stock targets) emulation as the original film DI, and is targeted to display properly on a Rec709 display. That is the only really effective way of matching the original DI, assuming the DPX files you were given have the color correction from that DI session baked in. It is also why this is best done by the facility that did the original DI in the first place.

 

[Mike Lary]

Under ideal circumstances, the facility doing the DI also does the video deliverables, and in most cases, that facility has different print emulation LUTs that are targeted to different display types. So once the film version is done, the LUT is swapped out for a different LUT that incorporates the same film target, but is calibrated to produce a proper image on a Rec709 display. The picture is then trimmed to taste. There is no real substitute for this that will provide the same image as accurately or as automatically. So the answer to the original question is to either obtain or create a LUT that is specifically designed to have a Cineon image as its input, has the same film path (I.e., intermediate stock and print stock targets) emulation as the original film DI, and is targeted to display properly on a Rec709 display. That is the only really effective way of matching the original DI, assuming the DPX files you were given have the color correction from that DI session baked in. It is also why this is best done by the facility that did the original DI in the first place.

Thanks for your response, Mike. I understand the theory of what you're saying, but I'm not clear on how a single LUT can reflect all of those conditions. Can you please clarify? Is the film path characterization a single LUT built from the print stock that is then used as the target in a Cineon-to-Print (for Rec. 709 display) LUT?

Can you please explain how facilities create their custom print stock LUTs? Do they measure the film prior to projection or do they measure projected values? Also, are new print LUTs generally created on a job-per-job basis as variables such as printer lights are adjusted?

 

[Frank Cueto]

23.976 or 24? Any reason to pick one or the other?

23.976 or 24? Any reason to pick one or the other?

HI MIke, here reviving an old but very useful thread...

I have a film-maker who is hell bent on shooting at 24fps his next project. His reasoning is that since he is aiming strictly for festivals, there is less chance of something going wrong since festivals request prints (24fps) or DCPs (also at 24fps).


I understand his concerns, but I really think that 23.976 will provide for a cleaner workflow when it comes time to generate all the other deliverables. Not only that, I know most digital productions run at 23.976 and most of the pipeline/workflows are expected to go along those lines and I would HATE for someone halfway thru the post to inadvertently produce something at 23.976 therefore throwing a monkey wrench.

Are there any guidelines regarding this or very heavy reasons to pick one or the other or are they freely exchangeable?

thanks