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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ask Mike Most Anything

Three suggestions for Stu:

1) go to REDucation and take the intro camera and Post classes. They'll give you a lot of the basics, and also give you the opportunity to ask questions of very experienced people who know what's going on.

2) read Noah Kadner's book RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera. That has a few chapters on post, and while they're dated (this is the 2009 edition), they'll at least put you in the right direction.

3) if color correction is your goal, read Alexis Van Hurkman's excellent book Color Correction Handbook: Professional Techniques for Video and Cinema. There's nothing better out there, short of sitting with an actual colorist for 40 solid hours and observing how he or she works.

Color correction, like sound mixing, cinematography, or visual effects, is not something you can learn overnight. I think it's kind of like learning to draw, where you have to sit down, learn the basics, and then spend about 5000 hours screwing up. Once you get all that bad work out of your system, what follows is probably going to be pretty good work... maybe even great.

The real killer, to me, is not just the color correction; it's the workflow and all the headaches that go with it. Especially last-minute changes.
 
Just to add to the great list of suggestion provided above, use FXPhD training courses. They are invaluable.

Also want to mention that there will be a moment on the learning process that you should start to be bold, and do things adding you own flavor. That will help you to develop your signature touch that is you artistic value added to the project at hand.
 
Suggestions noted! My thanks to you all.

will now shut up and listen....

:)
Stu Aull
Alaska
 
Stu,

Yes, this the time to open your ears and mind, but also not to shut up at all. We are here for helping each other, so do not shy away...!
 
Calibrating LCD TV for Color Grade

Calibrating LCD TV for Color Grade

A post I read in the "off topic" section made me a little nervous about a grade I'm doing in Color for output to 2k DCP for theatrical projection (from 1080p prores, but oh well). This is this biggest project I've graded so I want to do a good job.

We're a tiny studio so all we've got is a consumer grade Sony HD LCD TV, albeit a really nice one, two TN LCD panels, and a mid-end JVC or Panasonic NTSC monitor on which to grade. We're using a blackmagic intensity card to output video: HDMI to the HDTV, presumably component with an adapter to BNC to the SD monitor. The footage (shot quite nicely by a fellow reduser) is primarily 35mm film. The SD monitor was calibrated using Final Cut's color bars and we put HD color bars on the HDTV and calibrated it by eye how we'd calibrate an NTSC monitor (using Final Cut and obviously with no option for blue only).

Is there a better way to calibrate everything? I'm using the HDTV primarily for grading, having started with the NTSC monitor (with the blackmagic's default HD to SD downscaling enabled in system preferences) but having noticed that, post calibration, the image is the same on the HDTV and SDTV. I figured this meant we were fine, but I read a thread elsewhere indicating that some people were finding that grades calibrated for tv weren't looking good when projected digitally. Now I'm a little worried since I won't get the chance to test any footage in theater first (or maybe I can talk the producer into it if it's very important to do this).

Am I safe or should I recalibrate the HDTV? If so, how should I recalibrate it? Using Final Cut's color bars? Using something in Color itself? What color space should I be concerned with if the final output is delivery to both 1080p video and DCP, where should I set that colorspace, and what if any gamma correction options should I look for when converting to DCP?

I'm almost never clipping black or white so the noise floor is never crushed or blown out; we've got skin tones at 30-35 IRE for intentionally dark night exteriors and at 50IRE or so for footage shot at key. Saturation almost never passes 40% and is generally rather muted, but Color is set to bring everything broadcast legal (is this necessary for HD and DCP deliver?), anyway. Am I safe?

I only have time to do one grade and it's more important that it look good on tv than in cinemas, but I'm now a bit worried nonetheless...
 
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Matt W. said:
A post I read in the "off topic" section made me a little nervous about a grade I'm doing in Color for output to 2k DCP for theatrical projection (from 1080p prores, but oh well). This is this biggest project I've graded so I want to do a good job.
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Well, in reading your post, you seem to be doing what the poster in the other thread did, which is to kind of come up with your own definition of "calibration" and somehow expect it to work. Let's get a bit more specific...

We're a tiny studio so all we've got is a consumer grade Sony HD LCD TV, albeit a really nice one, two TN LCD panels, and a mid-end JVC or Panasonic NTSC monitor on which to grade. We're using a blackmagic intensity card to output video: HDMI to the HDTV, presumably component with an adapter to BNC to the SD monitor. The footage (shot quite nicely by a fellow reduser) is primarily 35mm film. The SD monitor was calibrated using Final Cut's color bars and we put HD color bars on the HDTV and calibrated it by eye how we'd calibrate an NTSC monitor (using Final Cut and obviously with no option for blue only).

Is there a better way to calibrate everything?
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Yes, there is. Go to either Google or AVS Forum and locate someone in your area who does monitor calibration for a living. Bring them in and watch what they do so you have some basis for doing it in the future, and so that you have properly set up displays for this project that you apparently have accepted responsibility for already.

By your description, you're doing all of this in a way that is not really a professional approach for a film originated project, and you haven't mentioned who is making the DCP that seems to be one of your primary deliverables. If you are doing everything as an HD video project, so be it, but if that's the case, you'll need to ensure that your monitors are correct, and that whomever is going to make the DCP knows exactly what you're handing them as a source. Color space conversion and gamma correction will happen as part of the DCP encoding, but for those things to be correct, the original material has to be identified as Rec709 video and graded as such on an accurate Rec709 compliant display. By your description here, it really doesn't seem like you have the experience necessary to properly set up that monitoring, so if you're taking on this project, you owe it to those you're working for to bring in someone who does. And you also owe it to them to make sure when it's projected that it looks reasonably close to what it did on the video monitors, which if it's being done from a DCP means giving those who are making the DCP the correct information about the source.

Good luck with this, and I hope you take the advice to bring in someone to make sure those displays are right rather than do it yourself by eye....
 
Thanks for the reply, but could you please tell me how to calibrate the monitor correctly rather than telling us to hire someone? If we had the budget, we would have hired someone else. We don't (unless you can find someone who will work for $8/hr and on immediate notice). It was grade this way or grade using Magic Bullet Looks on the computer's display. Anything else is too slow and expensive for us at this point. We have a week to grade a feature shot on film, red mx, and occasionally 7d, 5d, and t2i, on an uncalibrated monitor and with no control surface for delivery on DCP and HD broadcast video with a $500 budget for gear and labor. Obviously concessions must be made. I didn't "take on" this project, I was assigned it (and the equipment, which I had no say in selecting) as part of my job and I'm trying to do the best job possible under the circumstances.

Calibrating to color bars generated by the NLE is how we did this back in the standard definition days; I don't understand why that's such bad practice in the HD world, but I would be glad to follow better procedure if you could tell me what it is or even point me to an article on AVS or such. Or we could switch to the SD monitor. Obviously I realize the importance of doing the best job possible under the circumstances or I wouldn't have asked. This is a big project for all involved but our time and resources are limited and our timeframe was just cut in half.

I'm not in charge of the DCP conversion, I just wanted to let the person who is know of any gamma settings he might be aware of. I will tell him to treat it as rec709, which I assume is what he's doing already. Thanks.
 
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Matt W. said:
Thanks for the reply, but could you please tell me how to calibrate the monitor correctly rather than telling us to hire someone? If we had the budget, we would have hired someone else. We don't (unless you can find someone who will work for $8/hr and on immediate notice). It was grade this way or grade using Magic Bullet Looks on the computer's display. Anything else is too slow and expensive for us at this point. We have a week to grade a feature shot on film, red mx, and occasionally 7d, 5d, and t2i, on an uncalibrated monitor and with no control surface for delivery on DCP and HD broadcast video with a $500 budget for gear and labor. Obviously concessions must be made. I didn't "take on" this project, I was assigned it (and the equipment, which I had no say in selecting) as part of my job and I'm trying to do the best job possible under the circumstances.

Calibrating to color bars generated by the NLE is how we did this back in the standard definition days; I don't understand why that's such bad practice in the HD world, but I would be glad to follow better procedure if you could tell me what it is or even point me to an article on AVS or such. Or we could switch to the SD monitor. Obviously I realize the importance of doing the best job possible under the circumstances or I wouldn't have asked. This is a big project for all involved but our time and resources are limited and our timeframe was just cut in half.
Click to expand...

You're asking me, as a working professional for a lot of years, to condone and support doing something without the proper equipment, knowledge, or, quite frankly, funds, to actually do the job even somewhat correctly. I can't in good conscience do that. If you want to properly calibrate an HD monitor, depending on the monitor, you need a probe or a photospectrometer, along with a way to generate a full battery of test patches and knowledge of the expected values from each of them, and also knowledge of and access to the color management settings of the monitor in order to try to achieve them. I doubt that you can acquire those things with a $500 budget - but you might be able to get someone who can for that or less. Anything less than that and you're asking me to tell you that you can do anything with nothing. And I don't happen to believe that. And I also don't think it's my responsibility to give monitor calibration classes on line, on demand, especially when I happen to think it's something that requires a bit of expertise to do properly. What you've just told me indicates that you've taken in work that you're not equipped or qualified to do at this point. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. Once again, I do wish you luck with this, but that's the truth. Sometimes the most professional answer is "no."

I'm sorry if that's not the answer you wanted, but it's the only one I can give.
 
That you refuse to give me further information because I'm lacking it in the first place seems laughably tautological, but thanks for your honesty and version of professionalism and for answering my question re: colorspace from Color to DCP. If there's the budget on future projects, I'll insist that we bring someone in to calibrate everything properly. So far everything looks great, I'll just have to pay more attention to the scopes to make sure what we're seeing is acceptable close to what we're going to get.
 
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ISF certified calibrators for commercial displays will charge anywhere between $300-$500 in the US. The bare minimum option is X-rite i1 Display 2, HCFR and MP4-2C test patterns for a total of <$150. Of course, the expertise needed to use these tools is worth a lot more, but if you have time and inclination you should get started. Obviously, this is not an alternative for a professional calibration, but it is the least you should do, irrespective of budget. Plenty of good information available at ISF (imagingscience.com) and AVS Forum's Display Calibration forum. There's a series of interviews with ISF's director at TomsGuide which you might want to read as an introduction.
 
Thanks, unfortunately I'm only getting paid about $8/hr and can't afford to buy tools the studio refuses to purchase or put in any additional hours beyond the 12-16 hour days I already agreed to. I'll see if I can convince them to buy what you suggested for our next project, though. It's very frustrating trying to do a good job without the proper resources. Thankfully the grade looks fantastic so far, but I have to work very conservatively and refer religiously to the waveform monitor and scopes to make sure the image is roughly what it appears to be.
 
Matt W.

The budget way of calibrating monitors is to use a SPYDER PRO or something similar. They cost a few hundred dollars and will at least get you "In the ball park"

I perform tech reviews all of the time for customers as I help a lot of independent productions and I have all of the proper gear. Unfortunately I am based in Sydney Australia for you, but
i would recommend exporting a small batch of DPX files from a few scenes that you are happy with and take them to the studio that will be making the DCP for you and ask them to show you on a proper calibrated screen.

Then you can make your own mind up if you are grading the right way.

And please don't try to make your own DCP, they never look any good in my opinion and most cinemas need encoded DCP's now anyway. There are a lot of good companies that can help small projects out for a very discounted fee. The trick is to get them interested in your project, as if someone, even a junior at a big post house likes your project and thinks it is cool, then you might get access to their downtime and get good cheap advice and even a DCP.
 
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Matt W. said:
Thanks, unfortunately I'm only getting paid about $8/hr and can't afford to buy tools the studio refuses to purchase or put in any additional hours beyond the 12-16 hour days I already agreed to.
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You keep saying that, but it's like saying you need to fix a plumbing problem but can't afford a wrench. Just wanting to do something is not enough, even in this new world of "free stuff.' You need certain basic tools, and if you don't have them, as I said before, the right answer to whether you can do the job is no. I don't know why you saw fit to criticize me as somehow not being forthcoming enough, or by inference somehow holding back some secret information that would magically fix your problem, but I gave you the best answer I could. You left me no other choice.
 
Should I refuse to do the grade then? I might get fired. My job isn't as a colorist; I'm a generalist who has been assigned a task. Should I hire someone out of my own pocket to calibrate the display? I could buy a Monster ISF calibration DVD and use that. Is that an option for "good enough under the circumstances?" What do I stand to lose if I just continue as is? It looks correct on an NTSC monitor calibrated correctly to color bars; how far off could I be? I have an extremely good eye and know what looks legal and what doesn't on a waveform monitor and scopes--so even if there are technical imperfections it will still look great, just maybe a little different on some displays from what I'm seeing, right? Or might there by a rude awakening when this gets broadcast? I don't want to screw this up; I have a lot of people counting on me and that's why I asked.
 
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That's the thread that prompted me to ask. Thankfully it seems our DCP converter correctly identifies footage as rec709 and does the gamma conversion as necessary. I'm going to supervise the process a bit if possible to make sure. We're only in theaters a few days or a week so the HD master is much more important than DCP, but I want to get it right, too.

For now I'm downloading the AVS calibration DVD.

Thanks, Adam, for the advice and I will look into the Spyder Pro. Does it work for HDTVs or just for computer monitors?
 
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Thanks Adrian, I was hoping not to drag you into this, but things have a way of spiraling out of control for me when I don't keep my mouth shut... The grade is going well, and it helps that the footage looks good to start with, but I'm still trying to get the reference monitor better calibrated so I can double check everything before sending out the HD master for broadcast. I think the DCP will be what it is, though, but I double checked and our software does correctly recognize the footage as rec709 and adjust gamma accordingly, which is a relief, and we talked the theater into giving us an extra day before the delivery is due, also a relief.
 
My suggestion is to master to HDCAM and you will be safe. You can always make a DCP from that. I know .. I have done it a millions times.
 
Matt W. said:
We're a tiny studio so all we've got is a consumer grade Sony HD LCD TV, albeit a really nice one, two TN LCD panels, and a mid-end JVC or Panasonic NTSC monitor on which to grade.
Click to expand...
Whoa! Stop what you're doing. Eyeballing it does not work. Hire a local ISF guy to come in and set up the monitor correctly for Rec709 color space:

http://www.imagingscience.com/

They may not be able to get it dead on, because it's a consumer device, but they can probably get you closer than where you are now. The THX people also have certified people who will set up monitors, but I don't have their contact info handy.

You should take Mike's advice: this could be a road to disaster. At the least, you could wind up in a situation where every other shot looks vastly different in the theater than what you're seeing on the LCD display. At the worst, the results could actually harm the film in terms of getting it approved for delivery.

I would not automatically assume that XYZ digital cinema color space will translate perfectly to Rec709 home video. You should also be aware of what your home video distributor needs for the final deliverables.

BTW, note that this is also true for audio. I've seen quite a few films wind up sounding awful in theaters after being mixed in small rooms.
 
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