David Mullen ASC
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Probably, I assume you mean it has an MX sensor.
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Probably, I assume you mean it has an MX sensor.
Christoffer Glans
Well-known member
David, I haven't posted questions in here before but I'm prepping or rather putting together a budget for several different formats, serial, feature and short films and was wondering since I saw you worked on Mad Men what's your experience in the number of setups during a day of shooting, comparing episodic TV to feature films and how much time do you and the director have with each setup? Approximately.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
There's no formula so it's hard to be specific, some directors show up on set demanding 50 set-ups per day, others are more interested in creating fewer but more complex set-ups.
The page count on the call sheet is a big factor, whether for TV or features, the difference is mainly money spent in order to work faster -- many lower-budgeted movies don't spend the money on pre-calls, wrap crews, multiple cameras, etc. that can help you get more set-ups in per day. So you can be on a low-budget movie on location and have to shoot 7 pages that day just like many TV shows, but without a budget for a pre-call on the drivers and electric crew, you may be waiting a few hours after call just to land a generator and run cable to the location, something most TV shows would never put up with, they want to be shooting 20 minutes after call if possible.
You also tend to get more set-ups, or shoot more pages, on a TV series when they go back to a set on stage that they've lit many times already, so 80% of the lighting is already in place and you're just adjusting for the close-ups or for certain camera moves. With a feature, even on a soundstage, you light a set and shoot every scene written for that set, and then move on, you rarely get to return to that set over and over again so you don't reap the time benefits of having a standing set that is pre-lit.
You'd expect to get more set-ups done in day exterior work with minimal lighting, you'd expect to get more set-ups with multiple cameras, etc. And generally you'd plan on needing more set-ups for a 7 character dialogue scene compared to a 2 character dialogue scene.
When I started out doing single-camera 35mm low-budget features, I generally felt that a director shouldn't have more than 16 to 20 shots on his shot list. 20 was doable, and often 20 listed meant more like 25 or 30 shots by the end of the day. But now with 2-camera crews being the norm, that list is more like 25 to 30 and by the end of the day, 30 might have become 40, etc. And of course you have days where you get more and get less. I had a 90 set-up day a couple of times, but often with 3 cameras at my disposal in a space lit more generally for 360 degree shooting. Outdoors in daylight, I shot a fight scene handheld with just one camera and managed 60 set-ups for that scene, but they were very short shots, quick set-ups -- i.e. just a shot of a fist punching someone in the gut then just a shot of a face hitting the dirt, etc. You can bang those off quickly. But a more traditional dialogue scene with some sort of choreographed blocking to a moving camera, with nice lighting, etc. will take longer to rehearse and set-up and will often need more takes.
That's something that people don't often factor in -- you can rush, rush, rush to light a set-up and work out some complex dolly move, and then find yourself shooting dozens of takes, so a shot that you rushed to get set-up in fifteen minutes may end up spending 45 minutes shooting until you can move on to the next set-up. So even if you work fast on every set-up, at the end of the day, you may not have many set-ups total to brag about. If a director takes an extra fifteen or twenty minutes more of shooting time that wasn't planned for, that's more or less a set-up that will have to be dropped to make up the time difference (and to be fair to directors, a set-up that takes an extra fifteen or twenty minutes to light is also time lost that could have allowed for more set-ups...)
The page count on the call sheet is a big factor, whether for TV or features, the difference is mainly money spent in order to work faster -- many lower-budgeted movies don't spend the money on pre-calls, wrap crews, multiple cameras, etc. that can help you get more set-ups in per day. So you can be on a low-budget movie on location and have to shoot 7 pages that day just like many TV shows, but without a budget for a pre-call on the drivers and electric crew, you may be waiting a few hours after call just to land a generator and run cable to the location, something most TV shows would never put up with, they want to be shooting 20 minutes after call if possible.
You also tend to get more set-ups, or shoot more pages, on a TV series when they go back to a set on stage that they've lit many times already, so 80% of the lighting is already in place and you're just adjusting for the close-ups or for certain camera moves. With a feature, even on a soundstage, you light a set and shoot every scene written for that set, and then move on, you rarely get to return to that set over and over again so you don't reap the time benefits of having a standing set that is pre-lit.
You'd expect to get more set-ups done in day exterior work with minimal lighting, you'd expect to get more set-ups with multiple cameras, etc. And generally you'd plan on needing more set-ups for a 7 character dialogue scene compared to a 2 character dialogue scene.
When I started out doing single-camera 35mm low-budget features, I generally felt that a director shouldn't have more than 16 to 20 shots on his shot list. 20 was doable, and often 20 listed meant more like 25 or 30 shots by the end of the day. But now with 2-camera crews being the norm, that list is more like 25 to 30 and by the end of the day, 30 might have become 40, etc. And of course you have days where you get more and get less. I had a 90 set-up day a couple of times, but often with 3 cameras at my disposal in a space lit more generally for 360 degree shooting. Outdoors in daylight, I shot a fight scene handheld with just one camera and managed 60 set-ups for that scene, but they were very short shots, quick set-ups -- i.e. just a shot of a fist punching someone in the gut then just a shot of a face hitting the dirt, etc. You can bang those off quickly. But a more traditional dialogue scene with some sort of choreographed blocking to a moving camera, with nice lighting, etc. will take longer to rehearse and set-up and will often need more takes.
That's something that people don't often factor in -- you can rush, rush, rush to light a set-up and work out some complex dolly move, and then find yourself shooting dozens of takes, so a shot that you rushed to get set-up in fifteen minutes may end up spending 45 minutes shooting until you can move on to the next set-up. So even if you work fast on every set-up, at the end of the day, you may not have many set-ups total to brag about. If a director takes an extra fifteen or twenty minutes more of shooting time that wasn't planned for, that's more or less a set-up that will have to be dropped to make up the time difference (and to be fair to directors, a set-up that takes an extra fifteen or twenty minutes to light is also time lost that could have allowed for more set-ups...)
Christoffer Glans
Well-known member
Thanks, really great insight into real experience. 
Even though I own a Red and use one having a background in still photography, I'm more in the directors chair really, but I try to get to know as much as possible about everything everyone does on set because I'm in the opinion that if I have insight into others on set I know what to demand and what to expect and plan thereafter. So having a mindset of a cinematographer, actor, makeup, set designer and so on, is I think great for a director
Even though it sounds obvious, that thing is actually a great checklist for me to have in mind doing break downs of the screenplay. I'm fairly into the more complex shots over quantity of shots, but also that the shots primarily tell the story and in a unique way. I usually cut dialogue if I discover that something could be told by the images alone, but that also requires more setups and sometimes I discover such a thing while rehearsing on set and in return adding shots to a shooting day probably already saturated with enough setups. That's the hard part really, because as you say, those setups would add to the end of the day and in return you might need to cut setups, even critical ones.
Hardest part I feel is that most productions I've been involved in use single cameras and it's how I'm trained to make movies. I want to be able to do multiple camera setups, but at the same time I feel something changes when doing so. For TV I definitely would do it because of the timeframe, but for feature films, there's something happening when you are limited to one camera, you begin to think step by step, cut by cut instead of coverage. Start of the scene, movement of the scene and end of the scene. Maybe scrapping setups to make room for longer one-offs etc.
This may go into a more philosophical aspect of filmmaking, but do you feel that younger directors today shoot more for coverage than for structured visual storytelling? I.e shooting more setups in order to build the story in post rather than building the story before shooting and have a pre-planned execution of how to tell the story?
Even though I own a Red and use one having a background in still photography, I'm more in the directors chair really, but I try to get to know as much as possible about everything everyone does on set because I'm in the opinion that if I have insight into others on set I know what to demand and what to expect and plan thereafter. So having a mindset of a cinematographer, actor, makeup, set designer and so on, is I think great for a director
Even though it sounds obvious, that thing is actually a great checklist for me to have in mind doing break downs of the screenplay. I'm fairly into the more complex shots over quantity of shots, but also that the shots primarily tell the story and in a unique way. I usually cut dialogue if I discover that something could be told by the images alone, but that also requires more setups and sometimes I discover such a thing while rehearsing on set and in return adding shots to a shooting day probably already saturated with enough setups. That's the hard part really, because as you say, those setups would add to the end of the day and in return you might need to cut setups, even critical ones.
Hardest part I feel is that most productions I've been involved in use single cameras and it's how I'm trained to make movies. I want to be able to do multiple camera setups, but at the same time I feel something changes when doing so. For TV I definitely would do it because of the timeframe, but for feature films, there's something happening when you are limited to one camera, you begin to think step by step, cut by cut instead of coverage. Start of the scene, movement of the scene and end of the scene. Maybe scrapping setups to make room for longer one-offs etc.
This may go into a more philosophical aspect of filmmaking, but do you feel that younger directors today shoot more for coverage than for structured visual storytelling? I.e shooting more setups in order to build the story in post rather than building the story before shooting and have a pre-planned execution of how to tell the story?
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
The trend today is to shoot a LOT of set-ups, often "grabbing" close-ups with a second or third camera.
Christoffer Glans
Well-known member
How do you feel about trend? In my opinion it feels a bit sloppy to "grab" a close-up, instead of creating one.
Peter Moretti
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Hi David, I just wanted to give you a bit of an update. I've found what I believe to be a pretty good combination.
1. Doing a custom WB with 1/2 CTB over the 5600K lights.
2. Switching out the 1/2 CTB for full CTB before shooting.
This adds a nice blue tinge but seems to preserve enough natural tone for added flexibility.
Kirk.Attard
Well-known member
Hi David. First of all thanks for all the great help as always!.
I need to shoot a seen in a big water reservoir (dry). It has a high ceiling (around 4 floors high) and large as a football field. It has port holes on the ceiling. In the inside it is full of huge arches which support the structure.
The scene consists of a guy with a torch exploring the surroundings when he suddenly hears some noises from behind one of the distant arches. The scene is inherently dark as light of day doesnt come through apart from the few holes in the ceiling. I have access to hmi's to blast through these port holes to create some god rays. . What would you use to light the actor so that it seems as environmental bounce?
And one other thing. Would you kinos to illuminate the environment as well? The hmi rays will obviously out shine everything else but I still think their bounce will not be enough to explain the whole environment. I thought of using some fog as well so that it softens the whole thing, helps the god rays and makes the environment more eerie.
This is one of the initial scenes of the features and wouldnt surely want to mess it up. Also its a one time location so it's crucial I nail it right.
Thanks again.
I need to shoot a seen in a big water reservoir (dry). It has a high ceiling (around 4 floors high) and large as a football field. It has port holes on the ceiling. In the inside it is full of huge arches which support the structure.
The scene consists of a guy with a torch exploring the surroundings when he suddenly hears some noises from behind one of the distant arches. The scene is inherently dark as light of day doesnt come through apart from the few holes in the ceiling. I have access to hmi's to blast through these port holes to create some god rays. . What would you use to light the actor so that it seems as environmental bounce?
And one other thing. Would you kinos to illuminate the environment as well? The hmi rays will obviously out shine everything else but I still think their bounce will not be enough to explain the whole environment. I thought of using some fog as well so that it softens the whole thing, helps the god rays and makes the environment more eerie.
This is one of the initial scenes of the features and wouldnt surely want to mess it up. Also its a one time location so it's crucial I nail it right.
Thanks again.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
Any photo of this location?
Kirk.Attard
Well-known member
Hi David. I should be able to take location pictures in a week or so. I'll keep you posted again then. Thanks a bunch.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
If there are holes above where sunlight can beam down, then hopefully you'll get some ambient top light mixed with your hard shafts to establish an overall dim level. Smoke will help spread that. You may want to use an ND grad on your wide floor-to-ceiling shots to make the ceiling look less bright. Then once you've established how dark you want the ambience to feel, that sort of determines the balance with the torchlight that you want to aim for.
Peter Moretti
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Hi David,
I have a question about using practical incandescent bulbs.
I'm going to be shooting the outside of a house with regular Edison socket fixtures. While I'll be using cool light from an overhead LED to simulate moonlight, I like the idea of using real tungsten incandescent (not compact fluorescent or LED) in these practical fixtures. I know I'll be mixing color temps, but I feel that tungsten does something special to skin tones.
My question is do you have an opinion on using frosted white vs clear blub glass for practical tungsten bulbs?
You can see on the first two choices examples of frosted and clear glass:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/40-watt-standard-shape-light-bulbs/
I realize the clear glass will cause a hot spot in the bulb, but it will be inside a fixture and I can maybe add some diffusion or ND to tone down the bright spot a bit. I just don't know how frosted white renders skin tones vs clear glass?
Probably the only way to really know is to buy both types and test, but I thought I'd ask to see if you have any thoughts on this particular issue.
Thanks so much!!
I have a question about using practical incandescent bulbs.
I'm going to be shooting the outside of a house with regular Edison socket fixtures. While I'll be using cool light from an overhead LED to simulate moonlight, I like the idea of using real tungsten incandescent (not compact fluorescent or LED) in these practical fixtures. I know I'll be mixing color temps, but I feel that tungsten does something special to skin tones.
My question is do you have an opinion on using frosted white vs clear blub glass for practical tungsten bulbs?
You can see on the first two choices examples of frosted and clear glass:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/40-watt-standard-shape-light-bulbs/
I realize the clear glass will cause a hot spot in the bulb, but it will be inside a fixture and I can maybe add some diffusion or ND to tone down the bright spot a bit. I just don't know how frosted white renders skin tones vs clear glass?
Probably the only way to really know is to buy both types and test, but I thought I'd ask to see if you have any thoughts on this particular issue.
Thanks so much!!
Shawn Nelson
Well-known member
David,
In your experience/at your level, who is usually the one setting screen direction (L/R side of screen placement of character or movement) and action line? Or is this a pretty give and take between Director and DP based off the storyboards? And do you have any preferences in this area?
In your experience/at your level, who is usually the one setting screen direction (L/R side of screen placement of character or movement) and action line? Or is this a pretty give and take between Director and DP based off the storyboards? And do you have any preferences in this area?
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
The master shot usually sets the parameters and cutting plan, and screen direction, though you can discuss it when you want to deliberately cross the line. Now in terms of who sets up the master shot after blocking, that's something worked out between the director and the cinematographer, but the director is in charge. Once you get into coverage and the director wants to cross the line and break screen direction, you can ask him or her if this is deliberate in case they just didn't notice -- and even if you don't say anything, the script supervisor usually will.
I remember once setting up one of many angles in an office conference room set and at some point, the dolly grip said to me "aren't you crossing the line here?" on one of the set-ups and he was right, I had turned around this room so many times over the day that I had gotten an eyeline between two people confused. I was very grateful to him for catching that. Often for me, key lighting direction helps steer me in terms of screen direction, but in a flat overhead fluorescent space, there was no direction to the lighting. Usually I'm quite good at screen direction issues!
I remember once setting up one of many angles in an office conference room set and at some point, the dolly grip said to me "aren't you crossing the line here?" on one of the set-ups and he was right, I had turned around this room so many times over the day that I had gotten an eyeline between two people confused. I was very grateful to him for catching that. Often for me, key lighting direction helps steer me in terms of screen direction, but in a flat overhead fluorescent space, there was no direction to the lighting. Usually I'm quite good at screen direction issues!
Shawn Nelson
Well-known member
Thank you! That's helpful. It's an area that's recently (embarrassingly) come to my attention that I sort of skated by without putting a ton of deliberate thought into. What do you think about the psychology ideas that putting 'good'/sympathetic characters on the L is 'more comfortable', and that L-R screen direction is also felt as 'easier' while R-L is felt as 'against the grain' or 'rising danger'?
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
That may be true (in cultures that read left to right, not all do...) but it is generally too limiting for blocking to always have your good guy be left-to-right, and it's probably not a strong enough effect to be worth the effort.
I do find myself often defaulting to left-to-right when planning shots of a journey -- heading "out" is left-to-right and coming "back" is right-to-left (or heaving east is left-to-right and heading west is right-to-left). But reality often ends up quickly changing those plans!
I do find myself often defaulting to left-to-right when planning shots of a journey -- heading "out" is left-to-right and coming "back" is right-to-left (or heaving east is left-to-right and heading west is right-to-left). But reality often ends up quickly changing those plans!
Matthew Quinn
Well-known member
Hello David!
I have signed up to do an action picture, (only 18 pages on this one). however there are 2 sequences where the hero (think jason bourne) is supposed to appear and disapear in a dark interior timed with lightning flashes as he stalks the bad guy through out the scene. obviously some editing is going to play a big part of this effect. but my question is what lights will help me. my package will have a 1200w hmi and a few Hive Plasma pars. do i need some sort of special strobe? or is there a better more professional way to create lightning on set with the lights I have? i don't really want to do it in post.....
thanks!!!!!
I have signed up to do an action picture, (only 18 pages on this one). however there are 2 sequences where the hero (think jason bourne) is supposed to appear and disapear in a dark interior timed with lightning flashes as he stalks the bad guy through out the scene. obviously some editing is going to play a big part of this effect. but my question is what lights will help me. my package will have a 1200w hmi and a few Hive Plasma pars. do i need some sort of special strobe? or is there a better more professional way to create lightning on set with the lights I have? i don't really want to do it in post.....
thanks!!!!!
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
The color should be the same for a frosted versus clear bulb, usually you'd use a frosted bulb unless for some reason you needed the extra sharpness from a clear bulb.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
If you don't have sound to deal with, the low-tech and cost-effective way that doesn't have rolling shutter problems is to rent some metal blinds that fit over a large HMI, they look like signal shutters for ship-to-ship communications. You slap them open and close randomly for a lightning effect. Probably one could go in front of a 1200w HMI PAR but it may have to be held up with C-stands. You'd be better off getting an M18 (1.8K HMI) instead of a 1.2K if you can just for a brighter flash.
Otherwise, there are plenty of strobe units on the market like Lightning Strikes Papparazzi units or Atomic Strobes. There is now an LED version of the Atomic Strobe (used on "Straight Outta Compton") that should have less problems with a rolling shutter:
http://www.martin.com/en-us/product-details/atomic-3000-led
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
Again, I think the effect may be too subtle to worry about unless you have total control over the blocking, set design, etc. to make it possible.
There's an old rule that if something happens twice in a movie (or book) it's a coincidence and if it happens three times it's a motif -- you'd need to repeat this visual language three times in order to make this sort of screen direction symbolism clearer to the viewer.