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ASC/PGA Camera Assessment Series Screening and Discussion - WEDNESDAY, DEC 2

Evangelos Achillopoulos

Evangelos Achillopoulos

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This morning I found that announcement in my CML email folder:

YOU HAVE HEARD COMMENTS FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS ABOUT THE NOW "INFAMOUS"
ASC/PGA CAMERA ASSESSMENT SERIES CAMERA COMPARISON.

Now see the results and decide for yourself. NO one but you to critique the results. YOU decide.

It has been arranged that CML members may attend at the "member" pricing of $25.
This includes FREE parking.

The complete discussion and screening will be held this WEDNESDAY, Dec 2 at the GOLDWYN Theater
of the Motion Picture Academy, 8949 Wilshire Boulevard, Beverly Hills, California 90211

See it on the BIG, BIG Screen at the ACADEMY.

The screening will include the complete comparison as completed with a DPX centric workflow.
This will include all DIGITAL cameras and film as a comparison.

ALSO TO BE PROJECTED WILL BE SEPARATE CLIPS PROVIDED DIRECTLY BY RED AND THOMSON
AND WILL EXPLAIN AN ALTERNATE WORK FLOW THAT THEY BELIEVE PROVIDES BETTER RESULTS.
VIEW THESE AND MAKEUP YOUR OWN MIND.

For questions regarding purchasing tickets contact: kyle@producersguild.org

Payment is via check only and can be sent to:
Producers Guild of America
Attn: Kyle
530 Wilshire Blvd. #450 Beverly Hills, CA 90211

Make a reservation with KYLE at the email address above and make arrangements to bring
your payment check on Wednesday evening.

Regards, Bill Hogan
Click to expand...

Since I can't attend I thing it will be interesting for you guys to go and tell us what was your first hand impression.

To be a CML member is just a registration in this page:

http://www.cinematography.net/subscribe form.htm

Hope that will help.
 
No one else see the Camera Assessment screening? I must say the results for the Red camera as presented were less than may of the other cameras tested. They did mention that the folks at Red were displeased with the post handling and were processing the material themselves as well, and that the material would be made available at a later date, and possibly included in to future screenings of the CAS.

Anyone aware of the progress of this?
 
Re-graded RED CAS footage and Epic Open House ....

Re-graded RED CAS footage and Epic Open House ....

Christopher Probst said:
No one else see the Camera Assessment screening? I must say the results for the Red camera as presented were less than may of the other cameras tested. They did mention that the folks at Red were displeased with the post handling and were processing the material themselves as well, and that the material would be made available at a later date, and possibly included in to future screenings of the CAS.

Anyone aware of the progress of this?
Click to expand...

We'll be showing the re-graded PGA/ASC CAS RED footage at our Epic Open House on January 16th .... morning session is 'Invitation Only' but afternoon session is open to all.

Graeme and Deanan are coming over tomorrow to suss out how we're going to show the re-graded RED footage on the Sony 4k in the Bonner Theater here on the Lot in West Hollywood .... we'll also have the prototype Epics and Scarlets to play with (they don't shoot yet) and Jim and Ted will be on hand to explain the new systems (and some other cool goodies) and elicit feedback from all interested parties.

I'll be posting details shortly .... but if you're interested in seeing the RED CAS footage looking way better and giving feedback to the REDsters on Epic and Scarlet, put Saturday Jan 16th in your diaries.

2010 is going to be a great year for filmmakers everywhere!

Neil
 
Yeah, that "standardized test" was for FILM workflow, while works fine for other cameras, pretty much guarantees a bad RED image...

I trust the new grade = CameraRGB and REDLOG ?

cant wait to see the results! I promise Ill do my part to mythbust that BS test.
 
Sat Jan 16th ...

Sat Jan 16th ...

Tim Whitcomb said:
Yeah, that "standardized test" was for FILM workflow, while works fine for other cameras, pretty much guarantees a bad RED image...

I trust the new grade = CameraRGB and REDLOG ?

cant wait to see the results! I promise Ill do my part to mythbust that BS test.
Click to expand...

Graeme just sent me an email saying that I'm not allowed to tell or else I'll get my bottom smacked (he is a Brit after all) ... my lips are sealed, dude.

Agree totally that the underlying premise of the PGA/ASC CAS test was flawed from the start ... have been arguing the toss with the ASC Camera Committee since the first showing of the CAS at the Sony Lot way back in the spring ... unfortunately, we're never going to win that battle.

Saturday January 16th will be a turning point in Digital Cinema history .... if you weren't there, wtf were you doing???

Neil
 
ah yes, Brits can be cordial that way... got two of them in our facility :)

its not necessarily a "flawed" test, as its a proven film out workflow for VIDEO, but its absolutely the LAST workflow anyone who knows RED, would use for film out. Thats what sucks.

Calendar Set, Im so IN!
 
Neil_Hdi said:
We'll be showing the re-graded PGA/ASC CAS RED footage at our Epic Open House on January 16th .... morning session is 'Invitation Only' but afternoon session is open to all.

Graeme and Deanan are coming over tomorrow to suss out how we're going to show the re-graded RED footage on the Sony 4k in the Bonner Theater here on the Lot in West Hollywood ....
Click to expand...

I'm finding that filmout of RED material seems to still be a concern. Anybody know if this will be addressed January 16th (I'm CML but don't know if I will be invited). I have a new camera rental house (very small) opening up in Burbank in January and it would be nice to have this dealt with. I had a client inquire about RED, so I told them to see "District 9" digital projection but they went to "The Informant" because it was filmout. It's like they went to the ASC/PGA thing. Oh well.

Robert Torrance
Robert Torrance Camera
818-843-0600
 
Bob Torrance said:
I'm finding that filmout of RED material seems to still be a concern. Anybody know if this will be addressed January 16th (I'm CML but don't know if I will be invited). I have a new camera rental house (very small) opening up in Burbank in January and it would be nice to have this dealt with. I had a client inquire about RED, so I told them to see "District 9" digital projection but they went to "The Informant" because it was filmout. It's like they went to the ASC/PGA thing. Oh well.
Click to expand...

I saw District 9 on film, and it looked pretty excellent. It would be very difficult tell the difference between it and a piece shot on film, and nobody I talked to realised that it was shot digitally... Also, Knowing was pretty good except that the projector was out of focus the whole time (it was even hard to read the credits...).
 
RED CAS film-out test for Jan 16th

RED CAS film-out test for Jan 16th

Bob Torrance said:
I'm finding that filmout of RED material seems to still be a concern. Anybody know if this will be addressed January 16th (I'm CML but don't know if I will be invited).
Click to expand...

Bob,

That's a great suggestion .... will talk to the REDsters and see if we can film-out a small piece of the re-graded RED CAS material for the morning session.

And yes, you will be invited.

Neil
 
I was lucky enough to be at the ASC/PGA screening... it was an excellent room to see the tests in and there were quite a few heavy hitters in attendance.

I felt that if you accept film as the best image quality, every digital camera failed at least one of the tests. The Panasonic 3700 in particular to me was disappointing as I've always liked Panasonic cameras but the tests made it look very pixelated, very electronic and inorganic - exactly the opposite of why I've loved their cameras since the SDX-900. The D21 showed some washed-out blacks occasionally and the Sony systems showed some (I thought) occasional weird color shifts.

Having said that, without a side-by-side frame, oftentimes you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between many of the digital shots and the film-originated material. As usual, everyone's focused on the negative (no pun) and very few people are talking about how good much of the digital material actually looked.

The Red looked pretty bad in the infamous lightbulb test, but my problem with it was not necessarily the post-workflow but rather the acquisition - it left more questions in my mind than answers... I mean, it seemed the camera was intentionally over-exposed at the beginning in order to measure shadow detail retention at the end of the shot... I would have gone the other way: expose the actor's face properly, let the rest fall off and see what carries. But that's just me. I'm very interested in seeing the Jan16th showing of the re-timed material... hopefully Neil will invite me...:blush:

I think the tests were good, not necessarily for the data or images that resulted but rather because it's a step by studio-level organizations to understand what's happening in a world where there's a new digital camera every year. They admitted out loud they didn't execute these tests perfectly and they are already planning more testing. They also said they invited ALL manufacturers to re-time their material in their own way. They're learning, and they admit it. So next time around will be a lot more interesting, I think.

But my big disappointment of the night was the fact that there was no Red set up in the lobby. As a guy who has a little titanium R on my desk, it would have been nice to see a system there, and a rep or two, someone official to back up us true believers in the trenches.
 
We have regraded a lot of the test footage, but you are correct... there is no way to fix a missed exposure.

We have decided to just take an "L" (loss) on this one. We weren't there, we could have saved ourselves a lot of grief if we had been there to supervise. To try and "fix" what happened isn't as productive as showing what you CAN do with RED if you understand how to expose the camera and how to send the footage through a proper workflow. We'll spend our time demonstrating that instead of trying to shine up a turd.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
We have regraded a lot of the test footage, but you are correct... there is no way to fix a missed exposure.

We have decided to just take an "L" (loss) on this one. We weren't there, we could have saved ourselves a lot of grief if we had been there to supervise. To try and "fix" what happened isn't as productive as showing what you CAN do with RED if you understand how to expose the camera and how to send the footage through a proper workflow. We'll spend our time demonstrating that instead of trying to shine up a turd.

Jim
Click to expand...


:iagree: Thats what I feared. SHit in = Shit out. What sucks is they state RED representatives were there. Which I found hard to believe.

May I suggest complimentary passes to the ASC/PGA CAS members for REDUCATION?
 
L = Learn not Loss + L = Leap

L = Learn not Loss + L = Leap

Jannard said:
We have decided to just take an "L" (loss) on this one. Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, not so much a 'Loss' as a 'Learn' .... plus on Saturday Jan 16th we'll turn a 'Learn' into a 'Leap' ... talk to Deanan and Big John ... great day today.

Neil
 
Avatar?

Avatar?

Jannard said:
We'll spend our time demonstrating that instead of trying to shine up a turd. jim
Click to expand...

JJ,

Do you think you could change you Avatar, mate? ... you don't work for a publicly traded company any more ... you work for the future .... let's us see you in the best light.

Neil
now under NDA
Smith
 
Neil_Hdi said:
Do you think you could change you Avatar, mate? ... you don't work for a publicly traded company any more ... you work for the future .... let's us see you in the best light.
Click to expand...

Suit fabric would show moiré in pixel binning.

There is also this interesting new concept: link
 
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