ASC and BSC camera tests ...

[Casey Green]

Ultimately these sorts of tests tell people where there is room for improvement because technology is not a static thing. Look, there are nearly 5000 Red cameras out there, so it's not like people are not going to be shooting with them because of the ASC and BSC tests...

what it means is that producers are going to demand post houses learn to get better results out of the Red camera. And it also means that Red and the post houses are going to have to communicate better; if there is some particular technique that is going to improve the quality of D.I.'s working with Red footage, it's in Red's best interest to disseminate that information.

RED's official training program, "REDucation", which begins next week, should help get more people up to speed:

http://www.REDucation.net/

 

[Neil W. Smith]

RED and D21 lens test ...

RED and D21 lens test ...

I was most interested in how the Arri-D21 behaved because it was the closest camera to the Red, both being 35mm Bayer-sensor cameras. It looked and behaved pretty similarly to the Red, but it had a little better dynamic range and a little less noise, but was much slower in speed, maybe a stop slower.

David,

We've just shot a lens test with The Camera House using a D21 and RED comparing Master Primes and Red Primes .... its not as extensive as the SALT test we screened a few weeks ago and we're going for more beauty shots rather than a pure stress tests .... when we've finished grading the material you'd be more than welcome to come over and check it out ... your expert eye and insightful observations are always welcome.

We also have the film camera MP versus RPP comparison test that Kaas shot ... film print looks great ... RPPs hold up very well.

Have you had any feedback from your ASC colleagues on the results of the BSC camera test? .... I remember there was some discussion at the DGA event on sharing results between the two organizations.

Neil

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I haven't heard from any ASC members who saw the BSC test.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

I think this points to a real challenge. In the olden days of film post, professional colorists did all the grading. Now, with the tools available, anyone with a laptop and a Red can grade footage.

...

... only hope they don't grade it on 6 bit laptop LCD screen :emote_couch:

 

[Stephen Williams]

In the olden days of film post, professional colorists did all the grading.

Hi James,

They were not called colorists until the advent of advanced telecine color grading. Generally 'Color Grader or Timer' and just 3 settings to adjust R/G/B.

Stephen

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

"An updated BSC Film and Digital Image Evaluation 2009 encompassing 18 different film and digital cameras
and different film stocks was filmed at Pinewood in February 2009
This material will provide information for the industry which will enable film makers to assess the options open
to them in today’s ever changing world.


All the material has been graded to provide a level playing field for its assessment;
using the grey scale and Macbeth Colour Chart that was shot for every camera/film stock.
This was lit to exactly 3200k or 5600k depending on the scene photographed and exposed
using the ASA rating provided by the manufacturer/supplier, which was confirmed using a
waveform monitor for the digital formats. There will be no other grading of individual shots
in order to see the differences between them as clearly as possible.
The premiere of this presentation will take place in the NFT1 at BFI Southbank London on
8th July 2009 and will be followed by regional roadshows.


The event will expound on all the available choices for image making and give a comprehensive
unbiased guide from Budget to Post for industry professionals. The Evaluation material will be screened
and an informed panel will discuss what is beyond HD in terms of theatrical image capture, aesthetic and budgetary
differences between formats, workflows, associated costs and onward archiving; so that producers, directors,
production companies and directors of photography can separate the fact from the hype and make their
own creative decisions on how best to shoot their production.


The event will contain case histories of productions both shot on film and digitally, from budget to post.
The digital world is ever evolving and as with any new technology there are problems to be faced and overcome.
Subsequent events will be presented at Bristol on 4th August 2009 and further events in Glasgow, Pinewood, Manchester,
Cardiff and Belfast later in the year and in early 2010."

LINK>>>

One more video from BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009 (It's audience recorded footage of the BSC event):

BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009: Shot with 35mm Kodak 500T

BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009: Shot with RED ONE

BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009: Shot with Arri D-21

BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009: Shot with SI-2K


"Multi format camera test. This video is a shaky audience type and only for the close-up section of the presentation.
Obviously the quality isn't as good as the real thing but you can spot the differences across the formats.
Other tests were daylight interior and exterior and night time interior and exterior.
Also de-grained 16mm with Arri's new Relativity software which was very effective.
No such alternative processing for digital though.

Commentary from Sue Gibson, present President of BSC"

Actually they were making fun of RED(!!!???),

watch and listen at this web video:

HD USER MAGAZINE tagged BSC Camera Evaluation July 2009 (Vimeo)>>>

 

[Neil W. Smith]

... Actually they were making fun of RED(!!!???),

Sanjin, thanks for the link to the video clips .... do you know if they were grading the RAW .r3d files directly or did they convert them to DPX files first?

Did anyone see the actual test images on the screen?

Neil

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, thanks for the link to the video clips .... do you know if they were grading the RAW .r3d files directly or did they convert them to DPX files first?

Did anyone see the actual test images on the screen?

Neil

Neil,

unfortunately I'm not in UK, I'm in Vienna, Austria but that sort of detail info should be available in public or at least to the BSC members.

Maybe somebody from UK could help!?

 

[Laco Zamba]

It was really professional presentation :zombie_smiley:

 

[Shane Betts]

I'd still like to know what version was used. One of the difficult things to get across to some people is that, whatever it was like on version 16, or 13 or 17, has little bearing on what it's like under 20. A lot of blanket statements about the camera hark back to older firmware versions and are so no longer relevant.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd appreciate a different signature... because film is not dead.

They used whatever the latest build was at the time of the test. The ASC test was shot in mid January. And Curtis Clark, ASC, the head of the ASC Technology Committee, made a point at the presentation that these tests are "a snapshot in time" of shooting and posting techniques that are constantly changing.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

As I wrote before the BSC multi-camera test sounds like a joke because is not showing a real thing about RED ONE picture quality.

Even there were intentionally involved a sort of "conservative" jokes during RED ONE part of screening that could draw a conclusion about certain type of "organized plot" against RED ONE.

But hopefully in reality all things look different and it can tell to many people that in last two years the features shot on RED ONE won the following awards (just to name a few):

Kenneth Branagh portrays the title character in "Wallender".

1. BAFTA PHOTOGRAPHY & LIGHTING FICTION/ENTERTAINMENT
ANTHONY DOD MANTLE BSC, DFF
Wallander
BBC One/A Left Bank Pictures/Yellow Bird/TKBC Production, co-produced with ARD Degeto, WGBH Boston and Film I Skane

Charlotte Gainsbourg, Award for Best Actress © FIF M.Rabaux

2. Cannes 2009
Award for Best Actress
Charlotte GAINSBOURG in ANTICHRIST directed by Lars VON TRIER
Shot mostly on RED ONE by ANTHONY DOD MANTLE BSC, DFF

Bénicio del Toro, Best Performance by an actor

3. Cannes 2008
Award for Best Actor
Benicio DEL TORO in CHE directed by Steven SODERBERGH
Shot mosly on RED ONE by Steven SODERBERGH

"That's all about a 'true pay-tan' skin tones and RED ONE",

a message to Sue Gibson, present President of BSC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mike ogden]

As someone trying to make their mind up which format route to go for a production next year, that (the BSC screening link) was one of the most informative things I've ever seen on here. Coupled with prior knowledge, I feel well armed now.

Sanjin, you need to understand our British sense of humour. The HVX footage did look like sxxt though. And as Sue said in the video, once you shoot something and an audience watches it, they either go with the look and the story and know no different or (as with 'Public Enemies') you make a balls of it and it sticks out like a sore thumb to the hindrance of that story.

I think I now what route I'm taking in future. Thanks.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

They weren't nearly as hard on the RED as the HVX. I have to admit I laughed at the 'painterly' joke.

I can't even understand what what she said about the RED. But the Kodak footage does look very nice in comparison even through a DVCam so it's hard to blame her when commenting on the two back to back.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

As someone trying to make their mind up which format route to go for a production next year, that (the BSC screening link) was one of the most informative things I've ever seen on here. Coupled with prior knowledge, I feel well armed now.

Sanjin, you need to understand our British sense of humour. The HVX footage did look like sxxt though. And as Sue said in the video, once you shoot something and an audience watches it, they either go with the look and the story and know no different or (as with 'Public Enemies') you make a balls of it and it sticks out like a sore thumb to the hindrance of that story.

I think I now what route I'm taking in future. Thanks.

I understand the British sense of humor pretty well but RED ONE as a newcomer doesn't deserve this sort of "brouhahaha" at BSC screening test that was even only digital screened.

BTW, here in Vienna, the member of this forum Reiner Fritz and Co., were organized twice events with both screenings and comparison like a RED ONE vs film.

Because of that we know well here in Vienna how RED ONE stand against film and what should be fixed to get it better with the next firmware and sensor upgrade.

They weren't nearly as hard on the RED as the HVX. I have to admit I laughed at the 'painterly' joke.

I can't even understand what what she said about the RED. But the Kodak footage does look very nice in comparison even through a DVCam so it's hard to blame her when commenting on the two back to back.

It was intentionally "styled" presentation something like to show to the "kids" that if they don't shoot on film then their art-works would get "punished" with a "bad" look of digital "issues".

 

[Shane Betts]

They used whatever the latest build was at the time of the test. The ASC test was shot in mid January. And Curtis Clark, ASC, the head of the ASC Technology Committee, made a point at the presentation that these tests are "a snapshot in time" of shooting and posting techniques that are constantly changing.

Thanks David, so shot on Build 17 then, I guess. Just trying to get a bead on the goal posts.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

I can't even understand what what she said about the RED.

I'm not sure either, I assumed that Treipai (?) was some kind of tropical destination and she was commenting on the lady looking "orange" or tanned.

That was my random guess at least.

I find it odd though that for an almost identical skintone (warm and a little orange) from the Kodak stock, she lauded it and said that the actress actually looked alive.

 

[plasmasmp]

Since everything goes through DI now, why wouldn't these shots from all the cameras be graded to match as close as possible? Certainly you'd still see the differences, but I don't see the point if you don't even try to get them to match.

 

[Steve G]

Good to know that film festival juries are now judging acting awards on the shooting format rather than the actual craft of acting.
:yikes:

Charlotte Gainsbourg, Award for Best Actress © FIF M.Rabaux

2. Cannes 2009
Award for Best Actress
Charlotte GAINSBOURG in ANTICHRIST directed by Lars VON TRIER
Shot mostly on RED ONE by ANTHONY DOD MANTLE BSC, DFF

Bénicio del Toro, Best Performance by an actor

3. Cannes 2008
Award for Best Actor
Benicio DEL TORO in CHE directed by Steven SODERBERGH
Shot mosly on RED ONE by Steven SODERBERGH

"That's all about a 'painterly' skin tones and RED ONE", a message to Sue Gibson, present President of BSC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tim Hole]

Hell of a lot of cameras all in one place...Obviously this kind of test can only apply to certain aspects. I don't see how color, whether skin tones or a lot of mid tones can be properly put next to each other. You do one of two things: have a treated 'control' image and then use each camera to attempt to create as close to that image as possible. Which would suit raw quite nicely. Or shoot everything in same conditions and look at the results...that doesn't bring out the best of any of the formats unless they are all properly graded. Its impossible to tell from the images whether they were...it didn't look like it. Even trying to shoot a test with two cameras is extensive enough, when you are trying to work out how much to you can push a camera. This test is going to have limited useful results...the bitch of it will be that I am sure it will become a producers bible. The definitive...etc...

http://www.bscine.com/evaluation09.asp