Arri DR Test...

[Andrew M.]

This is what I was thinking, to put it on better moment.
FF EPIC is coming with extra stops of DR anyway if someone needs it.

However these two theoretical stops of DR is sitting there on any downers from 4K to 2K EPIC or R1 and having filter that cleans the deep shadows on downres would be very useful.

Funny that human eye works the same way, in low light it processes no color information. In dark we see only black and white.

Did anybody had unacceptable noise level when looking in the dark, how human brain gets rid of noise in the shadows? Maybe there is an answer?

Last time I have seen noise looking in darknees was when I had to much Scotch if there is such a term as to much Scotch.

http://www.maxriffner.com/parlor/know-how-to-drink-scotch

Andrew

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

True that Graeme, but I completely agree with Andrew as well.

3D aside, I keep hoping for 1080p at home and 4k at the theaters. I hear crickets when I mention that. I would expect much more noise in agreement. It just makes sense to me.

Either way, this is certainly a very special nut, completely worth cracking! Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I keep hoping for 4k at home, actually

Graeme

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Well then... : )

Is RED Ray going to become an affordable receiver replacement and be sold for a hundred million to one of the satellite companies/conglomerates/what-have-you? // Or should I say, when?

Not sure how to justify this under the DR subject but can't help asking.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I keep hoping for 4k at home, actually

Graeme

I agree, and I thought that that was the goal of
the RED RAY 4K delivery system.
:sifone::sifone::sifone:

 

[Christian_H]

Ceremonious Entrance to RED

Ceremonious Entrance to RED

Hi,
Long time lurker. First time poster. Snappy and Leo FTW!!! I'm not an operator so I'm just kind of following along.

Just really wanted to thank everyone whose hard work got us to Alexa and M-X. I also do websites.
And write features.

 

[Peter Osinski]

I keep hoping for 4k at home, actually

Graeme

I would love that in theory, especially with red 4k (thats the new red ray name right?) coming out. But tell me this Graeme, would I even be able to see the difference between 1080p and 4k on even a 60" screen?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Now back on topic:

Deanan, Rob, I will remind you of this once you are done changing our lives. Hope you feel as strongly as some of us do about this R-P-G-NR (Rocket-Powered-Graeme-NR, looks a bit like Guns n' Roses, not the new Gn'R, the Appetite Gn'R, the good one!)
; )

 

[Jannard]

I would love that in theory, especially with red 4k (thats the new red ray name right?) coming out. But tell me this Graeme, would I even be able to see the difference between 1080p and 4k on even a 60" screen?

Absolutely... you can see a definite difference on a smaller than 60' screen.

Jim

 

[Lee Saxon]

I would love that in theory, especially with red 4k (thats the new red ray name right?) coming out. But tell me this Graeme, would I even be able to see the difference between 1080p and 4k on even a 60" screen?

Can you tell the difference between 480i and 1080p on a 30" screen?

If so, then yes.

 

[Ben Holmes]

Can you tell the difference between 480i and 1080p on a 30" screen?

If so, then yes.

If you sit close enough :laugh:

I don't think it's a question of 'can you see a difference' - it's 'do home consumers care'. Above 1080p I don't think they do - and won't for some time.

It's going to be a long time before we have 'wall screens' and re-arrange our living rooms for larger and larger displays - or they become cheap and light enough. Maybe 10-15 years. Maybe 20. New display tech is very slow to mature.

Like Graeme, I'd like 4K in the home. I fear, however, we are not average consumers...

We tested a RED SDI out yesterday captured live to a Matrox MXO2 at 720p. I saw nothing there that wasn't suitable for broadcast - it was a very crisp and clean HD picture. It may not be RED's chosen use for their cameras, but you see a lot worse every day for broadcast. If RED marketed this, or produced a low cost unit with 1080p only, coupled to an MX sensor, they could claim another market (I'm sure they don't want to).

All I'm saying is - there's a range of resolutions for web, TV and cinema - embrace them all...

Anyway - back on topic. Hoping to see Alexa at the BSC show in the UK Saturday, if they show it.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Presentation of Arri Alexa

Cinematographer Frank van Vught gives a tour of the prototype of the Alexa camera at the AFC Micro Salon in Paris:

LINK 1 >>>

Arri ALEXA camera presentation >>>youtube video >>>

RED-1-M-X is still better digital camera system than Arri Alexa:

Just to give you the following three most important things:

1. RED-1-M-X weight around 10 lbs or 4 kg (without lens, battery and viewfinder) vs Arri Alexa around 12.8 lbs or 5.8 kg (without lens, battery and viewfinder)

2. RED-1-M-X latitude 13.5 stops vs. Arri Alexa 13 stops

3. The price of R1 body is 17,500.00 US Dollar (USD) equals 12,671.98 Euro (EUR) plus the price of the upgrade is $5750 and includes the M-X Sensor

and Sensor Board replacement as well as the new upgraded Optical Low Pass Filter that altogether is 23,250.00 US Dollar (USD) equals 16,835.63 Euro (EUR).


So to conclude is to say that three years old R-1 with new M-X sensor upgrade is a pure winner

over brand new Arri Alexa A-EV (50K Euro) in the price/performance/features battle.

That's how 17.000 Euro R-1-M-X beats 50.000 Euro Arri Alexa A-EV.


Only what is still missing with R1 is 3G out from one HD-SDI out source (but you have dual HD-SDI or 2 x SMPTE 292M standard that is a nominally 1.5 Gbit/s interface) and that can finally be enabled very soon.

Probably Epic with its specs can compete pretty good against Alexa at the upcoming NAB in Las Vegas.

 

[Rick Darge]

Sanjin, are you coming to NAB this year?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, are you coming to NAB this year?

Unfortunately not because I always stayed in US longer than I was planned and

it would be for sure again 3 to 6 months then it will cause my fast "bankruptcy" here in Austria.

I can't stay a week or two because of my hot temperament,

that means need really more money to collect to have my next US trip.

Have some of family in Canada and always need to visit Mexico.

Then I really need about 6 months minimum.

The best idea is to have a project/movie to direct/shoot there...

But I'm working on it...

Also I am a very "serous guy" that don't shoot a crap!

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, it's how close you sit. We shouldn't think in terms of screen size, but screen angular view.

Graeme

 

[Martin Stevens]

The odd thing is..........is that Arri will probably create a MODULAR system
in the near future, because they neglected to do so with the Alexa.

With film cameras the film is a swappable component,
with a Red Modular System, you swap out the brain.
So I guess brains are somewhat like film stocks.....that,
and firmware upgrades.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

This is what I was thinking, to put it on better moment.
FF EPIC is coming with extra stops of DR anyway if someone needs it.

However these two theoretical stops of DR is sitting there on any downers from 4K to 2K EPIC or R1 and having filter that cleans the deep shadows on downres would be very useful.

Funny that human eye works the same way, in low light it processes no color information. In dark we see only black and white.

Did anybody had unacceptable noise level when looking in the dark, how human brain gets rid of noise in the shadows? Maybe there is an answer?

Last time I have seen noise looking in darknees was when I had to much Scotch if there is such a term as to much Scotch.

http://www.maxriffner.com/parlor/know-how-to-drink-scotch

Andrew

If you look at your bedroom at night with very little light coming from a tinted window, the noise is far from unnaceptable.

It's hard to distinguish color and even forms.

We suffer from the same problems a machine suffers, after all, we're only complex machines.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If you sit close enough :laugh:

I don't think it's a question of 'can you see a difference' - it's 'do home consumers care'. Above 1080p I don't think they do - and won't for some time.

I know this is one of those subjective arguments that can't be won, but I have a really strong disagreement with this statement. I think people don't care UNTIL they experience something better, and then they DO care. I was perfectly happy to watch the network news in SD until my cable system offered it in HD (1080i). Now that I have that experience, I would never want to go back. And I have no reason to believe that the I won't have the same reaction to the next improvement and the next after that. I saw 4K projected at RED day and YES, I could quickly get used to that sort of resolution.

Better is better. Does cost matter - sure. If the HD was 10x more than SD, I would probably "put up with" SD. But for a few bucks a month for HD, it's a no-brainer. And no, I don't think it is because I am any sort of DP/cinematography perfectionist. Better is better and I think it is patronizing to the average viewer to suggest that they aren't sophisticated enough to know the difference or to care. Historically, people have embraced the better visual experience on an ongoing basis. Ignore this fact at your own peril (as one who "serves up" the visual experience!)!

 

[David Rasberry]

I know this is one of those subjective arguments that can't be won, but I have a really strong disagreement with this statement. I think people don't care UNTIL they experience something better, and then they DO care. I was perfectly happy to watch the network news in SD until my cable system offered it in HD (1080i). Now that I have that experience, I would never want to go back. And I have no reason to believe that the I won't have the same reaction to the next improvement and the next after that. I saw 4K projected at RED day and YES, I could quickly get used to that sort of resolution.

Better is better. Does cost matter - sure. If the HD was 10x more than SD, I would probably "put up with" SD. But for a few bucks a month for HD, it's a no-brainer. And no, I don't think it is because I am any sort of DP/cinematography perfectionist. Better is better and I think it is patronizing to the average viewer to suggest that they aren't sophisticated enough to know the difference or to care. Historically, people have embraced the better visual experience on an ongoing basis. Ignore this fact at your own peril (as one who "serves up" the visual experience!)!

There is certainly a significant market for high end home theaters that does care and will drive this technology in the consumer market

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

David and Terry both make good points:

high end home theater does drive consumer technology forward

when the price differential between the current tech and the noticeably better tech is small enough most consumers will do it

once you experience the better image/sound its hard to go back

I would add:

larger displays for the home is an ongoing trend and when 65" diagonal screen sizes are under $1,200, which means more people will get used to having a screen that size in their living room, the argument for 4K gets more interesting

the current distribution topology needs to evolve an entire generation - assuming IP delivery over proper broadband (not the medium band marketed as broadband in the US currently) as the dominant distribution medium.

RED's 4K player (formerly RedRay) might have a chance to succeed where Blu-Ray struggles because the quality differential between 4K and DVD will be much more obvious - the corollary to this is a larger installed base of larger screens (see above) that make it possible to discern the difference at a typical viewing distance, yes I know that they will need to be replaced with QHD (I am assuming that 3840 by 2160 will be the nominal 4K rez for mass distribution due to the easier backward compatibility to 1920 by 1080) but the display industry should be highly motivated to sell new units and ever more efficient at engineering if trends hold.

:jacked:

Cheers - #19